The Transaction

TT - 068 - Gabe Larsen - Full Episode
===

Gabe Larsen: [00:00:00] In the modern AI world, tools are gone, teammates are in,

Gabe Larsen: You're gonna hire agentic [00:00:05] agents, and they will be salaried based employees in your company.

Gabe Larsen: AI pricing absolutely broken.

Gabe Larsen: the market's [00:00:10] separating into builders and buyers.

Gabe Larsen: To manage costs, companies are gonna be [00:00:15] developing more in-house LLMs.

Gabe Larsen: I'm tired of ABM.

Gabe Larsen: We need to move beyond that kind of [00:00:20] concept. If you stop there, you've lost, and I do think too many of us have stopped there.

Gabe Larsen: What I've been [00:00:25] seeing work now more is I think an evolution of ABM.

Gabe Larsen: I'm starting to see the [00:00:30] power of signals with the power of an execution layer come together.

Gabe Larsen: We're moving towards [00:00:35] this idea of a real teammate type economy

Gabe Larsen: You don't rent a tool [00:00:40] anymore.

Gabe Larsen: You hire the cloud employee.

Craig Rosenberg: you're looking great,

Matt Amundson: God damn. Are you [00:00:45] ever

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, man. God damnit. You're so handsome. This is terrible for the rest of us. [00:00:50] I mean, and particularly

Matt Amundson: in a time capsule? And Craig and I are [00:00:55] like in the normal capsule where we

Craig Rosenberg: Do you have a cryo chamber? Like what

Gabe Larsen: Dude, it [00:01:00] Matt. It's been a long time, dude.

Craig Rosenberg: You's ignoring us.

Matt Amundson: He is [00:01:05] like, who's this old man? Oh shit, it's Matt.

​

Craig Rosenberg: [00:01:10] [00:01:15] [00:01:20] [00:01:25] [00:01:30] by the way, guys, before we start. Congratulations to Gabe. Uh, he just had [00:01:35] another kid.

Matt Amundson: Way to go.

Sam Guertin: Congrats.

Gabe Larsen: was baby, baby number five. Five [00:01:40] boys.

Craig Rosenberg: it's amazing.

Matt Amundson: This guy. This guy with the five boys. My [00:01:45] goodness.

Craig Rosenberg: Five boys is nuts, dude, that,

Gabe Larsen: It is nuts. What was I thinking? I, I [00:01:50] wasn't thinking that.

Craig Rosenberg: Well, just to get, you know, actually this is an interesting thing 'cause if, for the [00:01:55] LDS guys you have five boys, you're looking at 25 grandchildren, [00:02:00] minimum. I mean, that's a lot, dude. You're gonna have to, hopefully [00:02:05] this next one will get you some more

Gabe Larsen: Do you know we're trying to, yeah, this is, this is like [00:02:10] biblical, multiply and replenish the earth here. This is what we.

Matt Amundson: Restore of the

Craig Rosenberg: [00:02:15] anyway.

Introducing Gabe Larsen, Chief Revenue Officer of Signals
---

Craig Rosenberg: So, uh, it is awesome [00:02:20] to talk to you. There's a couple things contextually that the audience should [00:02:25] know. One is. If you heard, we'll probably have to cut some of the other chitchat, [00:02:30] but the, but about Matt and Gabe connecting. 'cause Gabe, [00:02:35] um, you know, in the, in the, in the early stages of the first [00:02:40] sales tech revolution, Gabe was at the forefront, um, you know, at [00:02:45] insidesales.com turned, whatever the new name was.

Craig Rosenberg: I don't remember. Sorry, that's [00:02:50] not, that wasn't meant to be sarcastic, but maybe a little bit.

Gabe Larsen: I, I blocked it out. I [00:02:55] wasn't there at the time, so

Craig Rosenberg: Okay.

Gabe Larsen: I don't.

Matt Amundson: I just remember it was yellow. It was [00:03:00] yellow.

Gabe Larsen: yeah, a yellow and black.

Craig Rosenberg: and then, uh, and then Gabe went to [00:03:05] Kustomer, which was a great success. Now I did, I you, you were [00:03:10] still like a media presence then, but like it was less in my sort of [00:03:15] comfort zone. Um.

Gabe Larsen: and you know, we, we, we have, I mean, they shut us down as we got [00:03:20] towards that acquisition. I mean, they said you could not, you can't say anything. So I. [00:03:25] literally had to shut up, um, for two years, you know,

Craig Rosenberg: And that's gotta be hard for [00:03:30] you. Um, and then, uh, and then now dude, you're [00:03:35] coming in hot. So I'm pretty sure this episode is gonna be ridiculous, man. [00:03:40] Wow, just bomb dropping on LinkedIn. And there's a [00:03:45] combination of things that's really interesting. One is Gabe is a, a good writer and [00:03:50] talker, and a, uh, a strategic thinker, but also the, the [00:03:55] rise of LinkedIn, as you know, the platform to get to the world is [00:04:00] also in play here.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, so, uh, so it's [00:04:05] great to have Gabe Larsen. On the [00:04:10] transaction. Bam. Here he

Matt Amundson: Syllable by syllable. I like it.

Craig Rosenberg: I [00:04:15] try to slow it down.

Craig Rosenberg: Speed it up.

Gabe Larsen: That was an introduction. I love it.

Matt Amundson: We

Craig Rosenberg: Yes. [00:04:20] Well, man, you're, you know, like, it, it's part of a point of pride for us. So, [00:04:25] um, so look, we got two, two sort of parts to the show. One is like, we ask [00:04:30] you to tell us a story, a Go-To-Market story, you know, fun, [00:04:35] funny.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, you know, heartwarming, uh, miraculous hero [00:04:40] story. Whatever you want to do there, we leave it open. And then the second part, we will talk [00:04:45] about the, you know, one to three things that you're seeing working today in this change to [00:04:50] Go-To-Market landscape. And that's it, man. That's the structure of the show.

Story 1
---

Craig Rosenberg: And we just like to have a [00:04:55] conversation, have fun, and you're fun. And so it's great to, it's great to have you on. So, the, the first [00:05:00] one I'll, I'll set you up for, which is tell us a story.

Gabe Larsen: [00:05:05] Oh my. Can it just be, is this just one story? Because I mean, I'm not a one guy. I'm like [00:05:10] five. I got like multiple, but lemme tell you something.

Craig Rosenberg: Hold on Gabe, let me answer that for you. [00:05:15] If we filled the whole show with stories, we'd be happy. Our issue is [00:05:20] that a lot of people struggle with the story. We knew you wouldn't, but like so [00:05:25] go. Just go and have some fun.

Gabe Larsen: it's so funny when you sent that to me. I'm like, I'm [00:05:30] having this moment. I'm like sweating, thinking about all of these times where I've like [00:05:35] totally screwed up and I've just, it was actually a really bad [00:05:40] thing you've done to me, but I'll give you a couple. I was thinking my very first [00:05:45] sale job, I'm thinking this is like, I come outta school, I'm an SDR.

Gabe Larsen: I'm trying to do [00:05:50] 150 dials a day. Like, I mean, I got hair on my freaking chest, you [00:05:55] know, cold calling back in the day. And, um, I remember [00:06:00] I got one deal. It was my, it was my very first deal. I'm in a company called [00:06:05] Sales Team Automation. You haven't heard of it and you shouldn't, it was bad. But,

Matt Amundson: company.

Gabe Larsen: um, [00:06:10] but I.

Craig Rosenberg: company. The oracle of its time. Yeah. I like.

Gabe Larsen: Or a woman's time doesn't [00:06:15] matter. I get this deal and if Michael's listening, he knows this is a true story. Uh, Craig, [00:06:20] he wouldn't, he wouldn't correct me. I'm selling a deal at a company called Arcona and [00:06:25] they do some sort of automotive something and I work 'em, you know, I'm doing, I'm running through the whole [00:06:30] process.

Gabe Larsen: I'm banned and whatever we used back then, closing deals, taking names, [00:06:35] anyways, man. I get to the deal and we didn't have DocuSign back then, so we put some, you know, we put it in a, [00:06:40] whatever it was, I don't know what it was, word or something.

Gabe Larsen: I send it over to him to sign and I'm [00:06:45] thinking, I finally made it. I got my sales deal and somehow I kid you [00:06:50] not, and it's serious. I get, I got goosebumps just thinking about this. I feel so bad about it, but I, I spelled [00:06:55] his name, Michelle, and it was Michael.

Matt Amundson: Uh.

Craig Rosenberg: Um.

Gabe Larsen: I'll [00:07:00] tell you what, like you'd think the guy, I mean, he's now what, probably [00:07:05] 53.

Gabe Larsen: I've talked to him about it two or three times. He lit into me, Craig, he didn't [00:07:10] close the deal. He said, you know what? This is a lesson for you. I, I will never [00:07:15] sign with your company. This is a mistake that I want you to live with for the rest of your life, and

Matt Amundson: [00:07:20] Oh.

Gabe Larsen: you'll never do it again. You'll never do it again.

Gabe Larsen: I ended up not [00:07:25] closing the deal. I've never misspelled anything I think, on a contract in the next 20 years. But I'll tell you [00:07:30] what, Michael, if you're out there, you son of a, uh.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. We'll cut. We'll [00:07:35] cut that.

Matt Amundson: Oh man, Michael

Craig Rosenberg: before we go to, [00:07:40] before we go to the next story, I'd like to dig in on a couple things. So one is. [00:07:45] Um, the 53 thing is Michelle [00:07:50] slash Michael is, does that make him old? Because guess who else on this call is 53 [00:07:55] And it's not Sam. Yeah. Oh, you're pointing him. Oh, thank you for that [00:08:00] clarification.

Gabe Larsen: just, you know, I don't know.

Craig Rosenberg: Gabe's 28. Yeah, so like, we don't even know, but yeah, [00:08:05] the um, uh, the Michelle thing that is [00:08:10] amazing. It, I wonder by the way. If [00:08:15] there's so many more mistakes today and there's a low, lower [00:08:20] threshold like our, uh, than, than there was back then. You didn't make the, I mean, I don't know how [00:08:25] far back this was, but like

Gabe Larsen: I mean, we're probably 2002 to four, [00:08:30] 2005, 2004, four.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. Wow. That is amazing story. But [00:08:35] it, yeah, I mean, I, uh, oh, I have, as you guys can

Gabe Larsen: [00:08:40] Can you believe we never ended up closing it? I mean, look, the thing I can think about is like, I get it. You know, he [00:08:45] read me the riot act and he, you know, gave me crap and I get it. [00:08:50] But, uh, to not come back and do the deal, I mean, I [00:08:55] still feel

Matt Amundson: My mother didn't go through 72 hours of labor for you to call me [00:09:00] Michelle.

Craig Rosenberg: It is Michael Michelle. I hope he [00:09:05] listens to the show 'cause this thing is going viral. All right.

Matt Amundson: is big.

Sam Guertin: Yeah.

Gabe Larsen: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:09:10] All right. Go. Let's go. That was an amazing story. So, well actually, oh, that was the other thing I was gonna tell [00:09:15] you. Perfect. That was a great story. I, we love [00:09:20] stories, man. That stuff is our favorite stuff, so just,

Story 2
---

Gabe Larsen: You're gonna, you're gonna hate this one man. [00:09:25] This

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, well, we, we hate it already, but yeah, This

Gabe Larsen: one had a better ending. I was thinking, [00:09:30] I mean, I actually have other man sometimes names, I guess I, I pronounced 'em wrong, but this one was one of those [00:09:35] classics sales kickoff, you know, company kickoff things. And I'll tell you [00:09:40] my experience, you know, someone always gets fired at the sales [00:09:45] kickoff.

Gabe Larsen: It's not a good sales kickoff if someone doesn't get fired.

Gabe Larsen: So, [00:09:50] no, I was this close to being one of those victims. I'll just, I'll just come right to the [00:09:55] chase. I don't know what I was thinking on this one. You know, look, this isn't drunk. I mean, you know, I'm a bad, bad [00:10:00] apple when it comes to karaoke. You know, I've got my jam, so don't, don't think I can't sing.

Gabe Larsen: But [00:10:05] when sales kickoff, I'm in New York and the man, I hope this doesn't go too far, but [00:10:10] you know. We have this casino night at the company. You know, [00:10:15] that's, you know, one of the SCO things that's a little more traditional

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Gabe Larsen: and [00:10:20] um, oh God, what was I thinking on this? It's not that bad, but I just said, [00:10:25] God, it was so stupid.

Gabe Larsen: Anyways, casino night and after casino night, there's, the company kind of gathers [00:10:30] around. There's some music playing. There's, you know, the fake dancing kind of going on. It's so [00:10:35] awkward sometimes at these things, you know, you're like, should we dance? We not dance. And I, I should've just tucked myself [00:10:40] in and called it goodnight.

Gabe Larsen: But anyways, the crowds kind of gathered around and, [00:10:45] and I think it was the CEO who was, you know, he was like, you know, he was, he was [00:10:50] taunting some of the groups. He was like, marketing, you know, sales. Like, come on, man. Get out there on the [00:10:55] floor or something. Well, he does it to marketing. He says, marketing, get out on the floor and do your dance and, or [00:11:00] like, you know, make it fun or.

Gabe Larsen: So some of my team, you know, gets out and they're like kind [00:11:05] of dancing in this circle and people are around, you know, it's a fairly big group, and I'm like, just, [00:11:10] you know, avoiding it a little bit. And anyways, my team is like, you know, Gabe, Gabe, [00:11:15] and they started like chanting. They're like, Gabe, Gabe, Gabe.

Gabe Larsen: How do you not do something when they

Matt Amundson: You [00:11:20] gotta.

Gabe Larsen: Oh. So anyways, I get, I, I get [00:11:25] out on the dance floor and I, I'm, you know, I'm like, what do you even do? Like, how do you even dance? You know?

Craig Rosenberg: I don't know

Gabe Larsen: [00:11:30] So for some reason, you know, I started to feel a little bit, and then I Did you not, I take [00:11:35] my shirt off.

Gabe Larsen: you, I take my shirt off.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh boy. Ooh, shirtless. [00:11:40] Shirtless.

Gabe Larsen: shirtless game. And, and I, I faked like I was gonna do the pants, you know, [00:11:45] I, I only faked it. Um,

Matt Amundson: Tearaway pants is the move there.

Gabe Larsen: you know, but I'm [00:11:50] out there and I've got this, I'm abnormally hairy, you know, I've got hair kind of all the way, you [00:11:55] know, it just kind of goes everywhere.

Matt Amundson: Oddly enough, I knew that about you,

Gabe Larsen: I remember [00:12:00] seeing,

Craig Rosenberg: That is that, that I remember seeing the CEO, in the intro. Yeah,

Gabe Larsen: I [00:12:05] see the CEOI see the head of hr and they are just aghast.

Gabe Larsen: They are just [00:12:10] thinking, what are you doing? You're stripping, you're stripping down, and I'm trying to do that [00:12:15] thing on the floor. You

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, the worm, my man. Oh.

Gabe Larsen: I [00:12:20] just goes from bad to worse anyways. You know, I, I obviously the heat of the moment, most people are [00:12:25] shocked, some are laughing. Um. I get up, it's kind of awkward, you know, I end up [00:12:30] having a conversation with the CEO out.

Gabe Larsen: I mean, I, I did retain employment, but I [00:12:35] think I was on the cusp. Thankfully, I wasn't drunk. I could just say this was just me [00:12:40] being me. But, you know, it, it ended up being a pretty embarrassing story. So watch out for [00:12:45] sco. Don't take your shirt off. You could be fired. That's the moral of the story [00:12:50] here.

Craig Rosenberg: You know what, uh, this one, I will say in today, in today's world, taking [00:12:55] off your shirt is probably the tamest thing you will do at sco. You know, [00:13:00] um, by the way, my first sco you guys, uh, it might be different 'cause I was [00:13:05] drunk as hell. I, I mean, I was like 20, you know, 4-year-old inside sale. I'm like, wait, it's [00:13:10] free.

Craig Rosenberg: I'm like, dude, just like, yeah. I mean, and. So, but it was my [00:13:15] first real job. I was a teacher and then I went into sale and I was like, oh my God. And, [00:13:20] uh,

Gabe Larsen: Class the SCO Who among us [00:13:25] day was, uh, day three of my employment, day three. [00:13:30] day And so they had a band and uh, [00:13:35] I. I'm a fun guy. I just got on stage with the band and [00:13:40] I'm like up there and I'm pretending to play the guitar and I got this huge grin on my face.

Craig Rosenberg: I [00:13:45] just remember this. My buddy still tells the story. He is like, Rosenberg's got this shit hitting [00:13:50] grin on his face. He's just up there thinking he's badass and I just see him. He sees his new [00:13:55] boss and it's, this is me. I look over, my new boss is just staring at me like this [00:14:00] and he just goes, and I'm just like, this is bad.

Craig Rosenberg: I [00:14:05] mean like I got off stage and I was like, oh my God. I remember [00:14:10] calling my dad, just going, dad, I think I've already been fired. Right? [00:14:15] The guy didn't talk to me for a week. He never actually closed the loop. He never said anything. He

Matt Amundson: just [00:14:20] still in the air. It's still in the air.

Sam Guertin: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: He's

Gabe Larsen: Oh, well, you know, see these are, [00:14:25] see these are, I mean, I got one. I got one more. I'm gonna get, I got one more I'm gonna throw out there, Craig. [00:14:30] 'cause you just, I, I, I, can I mention one more? 'cause now you're bring, I said you brought up [00:14:35] memories. They're just painful. I'm gonna hit this

Craig Rosenberg: It is a therapy session.

Gabe Larsen: I had the same, I [00:14:40] had my, you know, I'm going for this interview, you know, I'm younger.

Gabe Larsen: This is younger in my career. I'm out in [00:14:45] San Francisco. We're at this place. And, and it was the best restaurant [00:14:50] I've ever eaten at, you know, um, and I'm with my, this potential boss, and we've [00:14:55] done the interview all day. And again, I'm, I'm young here, right? And so we got a group of us, [00:15:00] and I really wanted some extra, what were they?

Gabe Larsen: [00:15:05] They were, um, dim sum. Oh, was this. I knew if I ordered [00:15:10] extra dim song, you know, like I think that would've made the guy mad. You know? It was like they were ordered for [00:15:15] everybody. So what did I do? Like a total pie. I said, I say [00:15:20] I'm going to the bathroom. I find the waitress. I say, I need a couple extra things [00:15:25] of dim sum coming to the table, dude. So I go to the bathroom, the [00:15:30] dim song comes, I'm sitting next to the guy and it comes, and [00:15:35] the lady's like, here's your extra dim song. This boss, this partner at a company, [00:15:40] looks at me. He is like, where did this come from? And I'm just like, I [00:15:45] don't know.

Matt Amundson: They just like

Craig Rosenberg: busted.

Gabe Larsen: I [00:15:50] didn't get the offer. I'll tell you

Matt Amundson: Oh, no. Dim sum gate.

Craig Rosenberg: what? I [00:15:55] blame I was like, I was interviewing for KPMG or Ernst, one of the big four. And you know what? Forget [00:16:00] that. Forget you. You know, I didn't want it anyway.

Craig Rosenberg: I, I, you know

Matt Amundson: [00:16:05] want the dim sum though.

Gabe Larsen: Did.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I still, did you get the dim sum? I mean, [00:16:10] were you able to eat? Okay, good.

Gabe Larsen: and, and I, I mean, it was like heavenly dimpled, like guys, [00:16:15] there's Tim Sung and then there's heaven. But it was, it was, it was worth it. It

Craig Rosenberg: Was that in, uh, [00:16:20] the early, um, early or mid two thousands?

Gabe Larsen: Yeah. That would've been probably 2008,

Craig Rosenberg: [00:16:25] Yeah, it was probably Yank Sing. That's where all the folks used to take everyone to their

Gabe Larsen: [00:16:30] All those recruiting. Yeah. I mean, it was. It was awesome. Anyways, you,

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. I [00:16:35] love those stories. See you. You nailed it.

Gabe Larsen: it's been ama it's amazing. I've gotten this [00:16:40] and I don't even know if I'm far, but man, it's amazing. I survived the, those 10 years,

Matt Amundson: above [00:16:45] ground, baby.

Gabe Larsen: you know?

Craig Rosenberg: I love it, man. All right, so cool. So let's. [00:16:50] You got a lot on your mind, according to your LinkedIn and Les Chat. GPT is [00:16:55] writing those things

Gabe Larsen: You can't ChatGPT, BT can't write that, I'll tell you that. It can't write it. Can't write

Craig Rosenberg: [00:17:00] You are, you're on

Matt Amundson: You're on Sam Altman.

Craig Rosenberg: but the, uh, [00:17:05] the, you know, uh, the, the show was sort of [00:17:10] founded on this idea that Matt and I had come to the realization that things had not just, weren't just [00:17:15] changing.

Craig Rosenberg: They changed and like it was. And we're all in this, uh, sort of, [00:17:20] um, the, the new ways that we do everything, strategy, people, process, [00:17:25] technology, tactics has changed. So that's why we did the show. And so we just, we wanna [00:17:30] focus on, you know, like, uh, you know, the, the three things you [00:17:35] believe that you know, or have seen work today or we should be thinking about.

Craig Rosenberg: And, [00:17:40] uh, let's just go from there. Let's see where you go, dude.

Gabe Larsen: Man. I mean, guys, I'm, you [00:17:45] know, I get angry on some of these topics. Like I get so passionate, I get angry and it.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:17:50] Angry.

Gabe Larsen: It's, it's, you know, I've been doing some of this stuff and I'm tired of it [00:17:55] not working and I'm tired of it. And so when I, when I [00:18:00] speak about it, I do get a little bit passionate, but, you know, one of the things may, maybe [00:18:05] I'll start here.

Gabe Larsen: 'cause I think this one's more actionable than, than some of the others I've been ranting on. But [00:18:10] I'm just, I'm tired of ABM. I'm, I'm just tired of it,

Craig Rosenberg: Ooh, I lo Hot Take.

Matt Amundson: There we go.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:18:15] Yep.

Gabe Larsen: When people bring it up, I say, you're old school, don't talk to me. I don't want you in the same [00:18:20] room. I'm not interested. I'm just like, it bugs me.

Gabe Larsen: You know? And the reason for it is, [00:18:25] well, do I need to pause? 'cause I didn't mean to be so dramatic. I just,

Matt Amundson: keep [00:18:30] rolling.

Craig Rosenberg: What? Well, we're trying to do a show here, man.

Gabe Larsen: I'm sorry. I just, you know, [00:18:35] hot takes, maybe I offended. But

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, well, you may have offended Matt.

Matt Amundson: No, [00:18:40] No, it made a friend of Craig.

Gabe Larsen: No. Well, Matt, you're ugly. You're ugly. [00:18:45] Okay,

Craig Rosenberg: Okay. Good. Good. All right. That was, that was better.

Gabe Larsen: now, now you're offended. Uh, no. [00:18:50] Look, I mean, I've been trying to do ABM for a long time.

Gabe Larsen: Personalization, you know, net phishing, spear [00:18:55] phishing, and you know, this, spend this much per account and that much per account. [00:19:00] Um, I just feel like I, I, I feel like the death of ABM, I [00:19:05] guess that's a little maybe trendy to put death. It just feels like we, we need to move beyond that [00:19:10] kind of concept. What I've been seeing work now more is I think an [00:19:15] evolution of a, of ABM.

Gabe Larsen: 'cause I still think ABM, you talk to a hundred people and nobody even knew [00:19:20] what you meant. You know, it was still, you know, you send in mailers, you, you do an [00:19:25] anonymized website. Visitors, you, again, some sort of net phishing. I feel like it got [00:19:30] pretty confusing. But the thing I've been liking more is this evolution into signals, you know, [00:19:35] signal based marketing and, and I, I think.

Gabe Larsen: I think there's something there where [00:19:40] people are gonna see the next evolution of marketing. If you take, [00:19:45] um, the idea of signal based marketing and you bring in a agent, [00:19:50] agent, some sort of agents, man, I think there's some powerful [00:19:55] examples there. And so one of the things I've been experimenting a lot with different clients I've been coaching and [00:20:00] working with is, is that idea is let, let's.

Gabe Larsen: Let's take the idea of, you know, [00:20:05] ABM. Let's just see if we can put it to the side for a minute. Let's focus first on signals and let's see if we can [00:20:10] identify, you know, your top 15 signals. And you can use tools for this. I know, I know Clay. I think [00:20:15] Clay and some of these tools have maybe missed the, the boat just a little bit by going so far into the [00:20:20] signal based movement, but that's conversation for another time.

Gabe Larsen: But let's go there. You need to find [00:20:25] your top five signals, you know, website visitors, job change alerts through, you know, user gems or whatever [00:20:30] it is. If you stop there, you've lost, and I do think too many of us have stopped there, [00:20:35] Craig. I think we've all started assembling signals and we got a database now where maybe we're [00:20:40] bringing in, you know, technographic, firmographic, whatever it is.

Gabe Larsen: And for the first time, we are capturing these [00:20:45] things better than we've ever captured before. But guess what we're doing with it? The same damn [00:20:50] thing we did in ABM we're slacking our sales team. We're we're, we're putting it in flat. We're [00:20:55] emailing sales reps and saying, Hey, guess what? Somebody's on our [00:21:00] website.

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Gabe Larsen: And it's like, oh no, you know, I thought we were gonna make the move, you [00:21:05] know, because again, ABM loved that. It was all about finding stuff. And then Slack and sales rep who never did [00:21:10] anything with anything. And so we never saw any value from it. But the signals based [00:21:15] movement brought all of this information into one quote unquote database.

Gabe Larsen: And then what do we [00:21:20] go do with it? You know, for the most part, I think we go back to slacking sales team. So [00:21:25] that gets kind of frustrating for me, but I think what a agentic. Marketing is [00:21:30] allowing us to do is it's taking some of these amazing signals that [00:21:35] we're finally capturing and then we're able to program these agents.

Gabe Larsen: [00:21:40] Omnichannel. If you're talking to me about an I SDR, who does chat, I'm just [00:21:45] like shot up. Like that's not an ai. You gotta give me an omnichannel. [00:21:50] That's what an SDR is. So I want texts, I want email, I want social, I want phone, I [00:21:55] want chat. Sure. But it's table stake. Then take those signals and let me action [00:22:00] itally.

Gabe Larsen: And boy, I mean, I've got some great little examples, [00:22:05] you know, where I'm starting to see the power of signals with the power of an execution [00:22:10] layer come together. Not in all places, you know, like outbound SDRs. I, I still think we're just [00:22:15] spamming people on email. That's not working as well. Cold stuff isn't working as well. [00:22:20] But if you've got warm signals, certainly lead response stuff. No brainer. [00:22:25] But if you've got people going to an event, if you've got those website visitors, if you've got some strong signals like [00:22:30] job change alerts, then you can genetically then follow up on that, maybe via email, [00:22:35] maybe a phone call. I think there's something there, and I think that's powerful because you [00:22:40] bring in a personalization that we haven't had.

Gabe Larsen: So I love that. I love this. You know, ABM, [00:22:45] I thought, I thought I saw ABM. I thought we were gonna go all in on signal based marketing. [00:22:50] We just, we went so fast to agentic based marketing that I think you're, we miss that beautifulness [00:22:55] of signal based marketing, but, and we're now in this agentic marketing, but the combo of [00:23:00] signals and agents, there's something there.

Gabe Larsen: There's something there.

Matt Amundson: agree with you. So here's [00:23:05] what I'm seeing. A lot of times. I'm seeing

Craig Rosenberg: I don't, but go ahead.

Matt Amundson: okay. [00:23:10] Okay. I like it. Uh, I see a lot of people, a lot of marketing teams. [00:23:15] Who are service or surfacing these signals because they're using [00:23:20] clay or they're using some other like combination of tools and they're just going like, Hey [00:23:25] Gabe, uh, here's a lead for you.

Matt Amundson: It's Craig. He works at a company called [00:23:30] Scale and they recently had a CTO job change. He's been on the [00:23:35] website. They recently took a round of funding. Obviously not scale, but you know, somebody like that and they're [00:23:40] just saying, go get it. And to me that is like, the job is like [00:23:45] 10% done from a marketing perspective.

Matt Amundson: You know, back in the like intent [00:23:50] days when intent was like super hot. Like not, not like the signal time, but like, let's rewind the [00:23:55] clock to like 2016. Companies were just saying, Hey, this company has, you know, [00:24:00] vendors would say this, this company has intent. Have your sales team go call it. I [00:24:05] was at that time, I was really railing that like, Hey, no marketers.

Matt Amundson: That's your signal to [00:24:10] begin a marketing program. Whether that's account based, uh, direct mailers, [00:24:15] uh, you know, ads, whatever, like, just however you do it and think about it. Just, you know, go [00:24:20] unload the clip from a marketing perspective. And I think the same holds true now, which is [00:24:25] like, hey, if the signals are there, instead of just throwing it over the fence and saying, Hey salesperson, look at all these [00:24:30] things that are happening at the company.

Matt Amundson: They have no idea who we are. What our value proposition is, but you [00:24:35] just go get it because those signals seem right for us. Again, it always feels so like [00:24:40] self-serving and it's not serving the customer at all. Whereas you could say, Hey, these [00:24:45] signals are happening now. The marketing team's going, you know, uh, full court press.

Matt Amundson: It's like, Hey, [00:24:50] here's a, here's everything that we, we do. Whether that's coming in the form of like thought [00:24:55] leadership, whether it's like a webinar, whether it's a personalized. Report or something [00:25:00] like that. Like, Hey, get to know us and what our value prop is before we hand over to [00:25:05] salespeople. And I think most people are in the, you know, sort of first camp.

Matt Amundson: There's very few people that are in the second [00:25:10] camp. And this is why I get excited about your idea of combining the signal with the agent. [00:25:15] And my, my question, although I'm gonna let, uh, uh, Craig disagree

Gabe Larsen: [00:25:20] Oh, we don't need Craig. We don't need Craig in this. You just keep going.

Matt Amundson: My question is, is like, [00:25:25] how does the, how are you seeing the Ag agentic workflow come together? Is [00:25:30] that, uh, a, an application that people are using? Are they just using [00:25:35] like, you know, uh, an enterprise version of ChatGPT or, or, or Claude or [00:25:40] something like that? Like that to me, I think is the, the piece where people will say things like.[00:25:45]

Matt Amundson: Great. There's a signal to do ag agent marketing, but most people don't know how to do ag [00:25:50] agentic marketing. Either they're using their own LLMs, they're using an LLM from a vendor, et [00:25:55] cetera. So that's, that's where I'd like to get to, but I know Craig wants to disagree.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:26:00] No go. Uh, feel free. I would say you, you said you've seen a bunch of examples, [00:26:05] so like something like that, like go with Matt's question. I will, uh, [00:26:10] I'll come in in a moment.

Gabe Larsen: Okay. Yeah, Matt, I, I think the, [00:26:15]

Builders versus Buyers & Why Tools are Out and Teammates are In
---

Gabe Larsen: this is kind of my, this is one of my other kind of, I don't know if it's a hot take, but, uh. [00:26:20] I think, um, I think the market's separating into builders and buyers. [00:26:25] Um, and I think, um, we're, we're establishing more buyers. [00:26:30] Um, and what I mean by that is you're looking at somebody who took a real deep journey [00:26:35] as deep as I could into ChatGPT and Gemini.

Gabe Larsen: And then I got real deep into making N8N [00:26:40] and Zapier to see if I could build my own agentic flows. And, uh, nah, [00:26:45] nah, I ain't doing it. I ain't gonna go down that path. They're [00:26:50] brittle. Those guys on LinkedIn who are creating N8N, I mean, look, I'm sure there are people [00:26:55] better than me, but I built my own page long N8N diagrams and, um, they're [00:27:00] complicated.

Gabe Larsen: Again, I then changed something in HubSpot and guess what happened? The whole, the whole [00:27:05] domino thing came down. And so I don't think your quick answer is like, I don't see [00:27:10] people building, uh uh, there will be. Building these little agents that are gonna do it. [00:27:15] I think they are going to look to the new age tool vendors.

Gabe Larsen: 'cause again, in the [00:27:20] modern AI world, tools are gone, teammates are in, I wanna remember that [00:27:25] one. Tools are gone, teammates are in, and they're gonna be hiring these agentic [00:27:30] entities to basically do what. Again, what I thought has just been a big [00:27:35] miss in the ABM world is. We capture, capture, capture signals and we weren't getting enough [00:27:40] out of 'em.

Gabe Larsen: And now you're gonna go hire an agentic agent from [00:27:45] new tool, you know, none of the old tools, all the new tool, the new kind of group that's coming up, [00:27:50] and you combine that new entity with the signals data and maybe there'll be a [00:27:55] combination. But that's how I think you're getting there now even. And I think we're early in that [00:28:00] stage, but it will be, it won't be a build, it'll be a combo of a signal base [00:28:05] entity with the higher agents, or again, I've been using the term cloud [00:28:10] employee because I, I think agents are deterministic and task based [00:28:15] cloud employees are autonomous and job based. A big difference there. We're starting [00:28:20] to see in the market as you humanize these agent agents more so again, [00:28:25] hire, I use that word very, you don't rent a tool anymore.

Gabe Larsen: You [00:28:30] hire the cloud employee. That's also something I think you're gonna see more of. That combo. A [00:28:35] cloud employee now accesses that signal data and is autonomously then [00:28:40] running through different flows, you know, and we could talk through some of those to be able to [00:28:45] action that data. That is so amazing and so rich and just hasn't been utilized as [00:28:50] much as we've seen, in my opinion, in the last 10

Gabe Larsen: years. Have we done, you guys [00:28:55] done a mic

Gabe Larsen: drop or that was a.

Craig Rosenberg: well, it was good. I just was wondering if I could [00:29:00] pipe in. Is that

Matt Amundson: Oh boy.

Gabe Larsen: Does he always do this [00:29:05] to you? Look at him. He's got a scowl on his face. Just jump in for heaven [00:29:10] sake.

Matt Amundson: He is having a good time.

Craig Rosenberg: well first of all, uh, [00:29:15] Gabe first lemme compliment you and then attack you. So one [00:29:20] is what makes this so interesting is I have literally [00:29:25] never had a bad conversation with you. Never in my life with [00:29:30] you're, you're one of the smartest guy. No, this is still a great conversation. Don't get me wrong. I just [00:29:35] can't believe.

Craig Rosenberg: Like what you described is ABX, [00:29:40] bm. It feels like, here's how you're defining ABM, passing things to [00:29:45] sales. Let me tell you, this is, I will tell you what ABM is. [00:29:50] It's based on this idea that some accounts are better than others, [00:29:55] and that data can help you decide that. [00:30:00] That was true 10 years ago. Okay. You start there, there's the ideal customer profile, and [00:30:05] then there's things like signals that allow you to determine when there's who.

Craig Rosenberg: You [00:30:10] do have to figure out who. 'cause even if you get a bunch of signals from a parakeet shop, that doesn't mean [00:30:15] shit. Right. Um, and then two is multi-channel [00:30:20] orchestration. It's not just handing it to sales. I don't know that that's just like [00:30:25] it's, it should always be. A combination of [00:30:30] channels, and in my opinion, well, I can go into what I believe and then I'm [00:30:35] gonna, I'll go back to complimenting what you said, and then, you know, third is there's, you know, different [00:30:40] metrics.

Craig Rosenberg: You don't wanna look at lead metrics and stuff like that. That's as simple as it gets,

Gabe Larsen: Okay. [00:30:45] Okay. No, I love it. I love it. May I respond? Can I jump in real quick or do you want to go back to the compliment? I'll [00:30:50] take lots of permission. I like this.

Craig Rosenberg: Well, we're, you know, I mean, he's a, he's a [00:30:55] nice guy. Please respond.

Gabe Larsen: Yeah. I just, uh, what you said is [00:31:00] theoretically true. In practicality, having run marketing teams for a long time. [00:31:05] I just don't think people did it like that. I mean, the original 6Sense purchase [00:31:10] was learning a couple intent and then running ads against somebody. The rest of the [00:31:15] hocus pocus you said never happened.

Gabe Larsen: You know, I mean, that was where I think we got [00:31:20] stuck, Craig with, there was a vision there, but I think oftentimes it stopped at [00:31:25] personalized ads via some ABM platform. So I love your theory, but I'm [00:31:30] just, I, my gut is that most people didn't get there. They didn't, they

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Okay. So [00:31:35] that was a good setup because I noticed you said the word theory three times. [00:31:40] I like, I, you know, you're a nice guy. So you did it in a calling it theory. [00:31:45] I

Matt Amundson: I like it when people say theorem.

Craig Rosenberg: You do. That's a big, you're a big [00:31:50] fan. Well, I mean, that's on the, everything's on the table here in this conversation, [00:31:55] so, um. What I would argue is, so it was a [00:32:00] provocative statement, but what I would argue is that you can actually do ABM today,

Gabe Larsen: [00:32:05] Okay. Okay.

Craig Rosenberg: and that at the end of the day, [00:32:10] uh, there's been a number of, uh, uh, significant [00:32:15] innovation.

Craig Rosenberg: So one is signals. I am like [00:32:20] all, I love what you said there. That is a huge deal. [00:32:25] Like the, the ability to use data we've never used before is [00:32:30] extraordinary. And I would argue there's like recency signals. These are things [00:32:35] that tell you, you should go talk to someone right now. Right? Because it, it takes it away from cold as you put it.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:32:40] That was well said. There's also like the ability, [00:32:45] what I would say is, you know, using ai, the clays or whatever you want to use in the world. [00:32:50] To go actually micro-segment to like people from a, uh, [00:32:55] from a publicly available data set to really find the right types [00:33:00] of accounts to go after as well. Both things are true and both things are amazing.[00:33:05]

Craig Rosenberg: Number two is with the advent of ai, in my opinion. [00:33:10] You've, there's certain signals that sales should reach out to [00:33:15] right away, but I'm gonna address that in a sec. In my opinion, marketing should own all of [00:33:20] this until opportunity because, um, [00:33:25] if you can take someone who has, like, if you take someone who has [00:33:30] signals and marketing owns the design of orchestration.

Craig Rosenberg: Air [00:33:35] cover like sort of begins immediately. And there's, you know, other plays that sort of get [00:33:40] unearth and you guys are better at looking at data. It's not sales fault. Sales is just, [00:33:45] they're desperate for people that won't say no. Right? And so they're gonna [00:33:50] go. And so we do that. So you can also control [00:33:55] this.

Craig Rosenberg: The agent allows us to do, uh. [00:34:00] Uh, you know, it's a better opportunity to do better message, better channel [00:34:05] orchestration, better plays, and to look at it. So in my opinion, [00:34:10] um, this is like, this is real ABM. So let me [00:34:15] say the why. You said what you said. One is ABM got hijacked by the [00:34:20] vendors because even six Sense, that wasn't ABM.

Craig Rosenberg: I, I don't blame them like, [00:34:25] but like intent was not ABM. Like that was

Gabe Larsen: Intent plus ads. Intent [00:34:30] plus ads. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: A but, but, but ads were like, yeah, okay. [00:34:35] But a, you know, ads are part of the mix. But yeah, like the data set, like [00:34:40] that, the intent was one of 'em, and by the way, that's not to bag on anybody on this show in [00:34:45] terms of the vendors, but they hijacked ABM.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, and then sales also hijacked [00:34:50] ABM. They called it a BS. And by the way, in many ways, I blame the vendor community [00:34:55] on that one too. And some of the consultants who just wanted to get in on it, and it's like. Really [00:35:00] like that. It's like, and so it's still, it's still a mess. What it [00:35:05] is. Let's just talk about what works today, what you just said.

Craig Rosenberg: I love [00:35:10] that. See, I'm back to the compliment, everything. The, the beauty of it [00:35:15] was I was hung up on the headline, but as you kept talking I was like, that is just [00:35:20] awesome.

Gabe Larsen: Yeah. And I, you know, I was, that's just kinda like the LinkedIn play. I always tried to just be a little bit of a punk.

Gabe Larsen: [00:35:25] Well, it's trying it. You don't have to defend yourself.

Gabe Larsen: a, I'm trying to be a punk.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. But, but [00:35:30] yeah. But, um, but yeah, so, so I love what's happening now. [00:35:35] It's exciting. This, you know, and like, um, uh, okay. [00:35:40] The second thing I'll give you guys some data. Really interesting. So we just did, uh, 200. We looked [00:35:45] at, we, we surveyed 200 folks on Go-to-Market ai,

Gabe Larsen: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: and [00:35:50] we asked build by

Gabe Larsen: [00:35:55] Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: like.

Craig Rosenberg: Buy AI native or buy AI from [00:36:00] incumbents?

Gabe Larsen: Oh, I love it. Oh my goodness. Where's that survey? Uh oh, did it prove me wrong? Give it to [00:36:05] me.

Craig Rosenberg: No, because you what you're, you're talking about next six months, which I, [00:36:10] which we should talk about right now it's 30. 30. 30.

Gabe Larsen: Why? That's a [00:36:15] great survey. That's a great,

Matt Amundson: What happened to the But that, well, they're not doing. Yeah. Well, [00:36:20] it's 33, 32. Yeah, you're good point. Thanks. Good point. What.

Gabe Larsen: I

Craig Rosenberg: We like [00:36:25] to be precise on the transaction,

Matt Amundson: specificity wins baby.

Craig Rosenberg: but [00:36:30] remember that's in my opinion, you know, like we had boskovich on, uh, David [00:36:35] Boskovich, which, you know, I know you've never listened to this show, but like if you did Gabe, there's a [00:36:40] show with David Boskovich where he makes a really important compliment, which [00:36:45] is he'd rather buy, but that the build is ahead of the buy right now.[00:36:50]

Gabe Larsen: it That what, you can build better stuff today than buy. [00:36:55] But as he said on the show, dude, if you can make what I [00:37:00] built, I'll give you the money. You can have it. 'cause I want you to own the innovation. I want you to do [00:37:05] these things. So I think that's, that's one of the things right now I think, uh, [00:37:10] um, it's hard to buy right now.

Craig Rosenberg: And I, the vendors in my opinion, are still on ketchup. [00:37:15] give you guys Yeah.

Gabe Larsen: done it. You know, I think a lot of vendors are starting exactly where [00:37:20] you would start normally. Again, they're building templates in Maker N eight end, and they're basically packing [00:37:25] that up, send it over. Very few companies I think, are going to that true [00:37:30] multi-agent platform like accrue ai. Little shout out out there to where they're really [00:37:35] big, being allowed to build more complex entities where you have managers and agents and you know, some of the, [00:37:40] so I, I feel like yeah, we are right there where I might as well build it if I'm just gonna buy in [00:37:45] and make.com diagram basically that someone else built.

Gabe Larsen: And it's fairly brittle. So [00:37:50] I like that statement. But yeah, my gut is there, um, having, having tried to build those [00:37:55] entities myself. I think there's gonna be more buying than I originally, if you had asked me six months ago, [00:38:00] I thought we were all, I thought it was gonna be a generation of builders. I thought we were all gonna have ChatGPT [00:38:05] and there may be that in some future, future, but I think the next multiple years [00:38:10] are, are going to experts who have built fairly complex entities [00:38:15] and, and basically securing those services like that.

Gabe Larsen: But

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: I will give you another, I'll give you another [00:38:20] tidbit. Oh, sorry Matt.

Matt Amundson: I want, I want the

Craig Rosenberg: you at this. Oh, you do? Okay. So [00:38:25] second tidbit by the way. Well actually hold on. Pre tidbit to the tidbit. I wasn't frowning. [00:38:30] How, what was I, me, you accused me of frowning when

Gabe Larsen: no, [00:38:35] I said scowl. I said

Craig Rosenberg: oh, Scott, well, I don't.

Gabe Larsen: there's a difference. There's a

Craig Rosenberg: I [00:38:40] was not, I do not scowl. This is the best time I have all week. Alright, so [00:38:45] here, here's,

Matt Amundson: both double circled this. This one we're

Craig Rosenberg: oh God. [00:38:50] Alright, so the, um, uh, one of the things [00:38:55] the vendors have to realize, um, so I, I was talking to an analyst [00:39:00] off record, so I can't tell you, I won't tell you who, but like, you know, he was talking about how [00:39:05] he was looking at, uh, you know.

Craig Rosenberg: Talking to buyers who [00:39:10] had switched from incumbent Go-To-Market tech vendors to, uh, [00:39:15] frankly suboptimal. And he was saying, look like [00:39:20] the, if you look at what the vendors did, it's like from, you know, [00:39:25] four years ago, we wanted the vendors to tell us what they should do. [00:39:30] Everything was templatized and rigid.

Craig Rosenberg: And now the, [00:39:35] the, the, they're, and they're incapable. Of providing the flexibility 'cause they weren't [00:39:40] built that way. And like now I don't know if they're in cable and [00:39:45] by the way, everyone's gonna try to guess who the analyst, but it was, it's not who you think it was that, talk to [00:39:50] me about this. What I, and that sort of coalesced for me what I've been seeing.

Craig Rosenberg: So [00:39:55] we've been doing four or five interviews a week with folks that are doing Go-To-Market ai [00:40:00] and we are in ready, this is the customization economy. [00:40:05] One of the reasons there's a gravitational pull to the build and one of the reasons [00:40:10] that people, you know, des, despite what the New York Times put out the agents [00:40:15] are exciting to people is 'cause it's for me.

Craig Rosenberg: I can build, [00:40:20] I can build what I want and when, [00:40:25] uh, and so as we look to this next set of buying, can I build [00:40:30] what I can I buy. The type of flexibility that I get from [00:40:35] building, but you take it from here and you make it better, you own it for [00:40:40] me, you support it For me, that's when Bill, uh, by really [00:40:45] takes off right as the, the pendulum flips.

Craig Rosenberg: But it can't be, it [00:40:50] cannot be rigid because like the stories I hear these folks that are building stuff, you know, [00:40:55] taking Gong calls and pumping them into ChatGPT and the [00:41:00] output is whatever you want it to make. That's a big deal like that, that [00:41:05] that's the kind of flexibility that people like, um, if you're stuck [00:41:10] in a way of working.

Craig Rosenberg: Right. Um, that actually, [00:41:15] that's gonna be tough on folks in the, in this new sort of, uh, AI world. So [00:41:20] that was my last comment,

Matt Amundson: I think it's, I mean, I, I agree [00:41:25] with you. I think that one, one of the things, but here's, here's what [00:41:30] we're missing. It's been a long time since a MarTech or a [00:41:35] sales tech vendor had real perspective on the market.

Gabe Larsen: You're looking at

Gabe Larsen: [00:41:40] him.

Matt Amundson: No, I know, I know. But like right now, there is this moment where I think [00:41:45] somebody can come in either as a sales tech or as a MarTech vendor or something [00:41:50] that does both and says like, this is the way you build agents.[00:41:55]

Matt Amundson: You can build agents with our platform. This is how you do it. You should be able to [00:42:00] customize it to your business. The rigidity of old sales, tech and

Matt Amundson: MarTech,

Matt Amundson: that didn't work well. [00:42:05] But what did work well is they told you how to do stuff. Like you [00:42:10] think back to my days at Marketo, you think back to

Matt Amundson: the, you know, the early days of HubSpot.

Matt Amundson: It's like every [00:42:15] day they're like, here's how you do it. Here's how you do it. Here's how you do it. Oh, you don't know how to do social media marketing. [00:42:20] Here's how, oh, you don't know how to do email nurture. Here's how you don't know how to do lead scoring. Here's how. [00:42:25] Right, and I think. Because it's easier to say, well, with [00:42:30] our platform you can do anything you want.

Matt Amundson: People have defaulted to that, and right now there's just too [00:42:35] many Go-To-Market teams, sales, marketing, whatever it is, who are out in the woods. They [00:42:40] don't have real direction on how to do this stuff, that a vendor can come in and absolutely nail [00:42:45] it. Now, the other thing I think is some of the systems that we use [00:42:50] don't have to go away.

Matt Amundson: What you need is you need your own custom private. [00:42:55] LLM that sits on top of your CRM sits on top of your marketing automation [00:43:00] system, sits on top of whatever integration tools that you use, maps the entire [00:43:05] environment, and then you can sort of tell it what to do and it will build agents that perform

Matt Amundson: [00:43:10] those tasks.

Gabe Larsen: Interesting. Interesting.

Gabe Larsen: Okay.

Matt Amundson: I think that that is a great place to [00:43:15] start. Do I think CRM as we know it is going away? I absolutely do. Do we do I think marketing [00:43:20] automation as we know it is going away. I absolutely do. There's a moment right now where you [00:43:25] can get in and you can solve a lot of people's problems without having to necessarily disrupt the [00:43:30] tools that they're super accustomed to and have a lot of lineage with.

Matt Amundson: Like, [00:43:35] you know this, this is coming from a guy who's been using Salesforce since 2003, right? Like [00:43:40] there's a scariness that comes with, Hey, you don't need Salesforce anymore. Like, that's a little [00:43:45] unnerving to me. But if you could just give me my own GPT or my own LLM that would sit on [00:43:50] top of all my systems and I can say, Hey, I need an agent that every time there's a buying signal [00:43:55] that looks like this, or every time there's a combination of buying signals that look like this, you fire an [00:44:00] ad, you send an email, you create an invitation to a webinar, [00:44:05] whatever you invite them to a dinner. That is what I want in a big way, and [00:44:10] I've not seen the tooling out in the marketplace to do that other than what you explained earlier, [00:44:15] Gabe, which I've been experimenting with, is how do I build it myself? But I've had the exact same [00:44:20] results that you've had, which is, it is brittle. As brittle can be. You change one thing and that [00:44:25] cards just

Matt Amundson: collapse.

Gabe Larsen: Yeah. Wow, man, that's a lot. Let, let me, let me just respond to a couple of those. [00:44:30] 'cause I I do feel like You know, um, there isn't, I love that there's no [00:44:35] perspective right now that that's so powerful. It, it's re vendors are coming and a [00:44:40] lot of times they're call it, no offense, college kids super smart and they're like, we can build you anything.

Gabe Larsen: And so it's like, we'll just [00:44:45] build it for you. So I, I like that concept and it leading, I

Gabe Larsen: think some people astray. [00:44:50] I like how you say, you mentioned this word of like, you know, maybe there's a vendor that's gonna

Gabe Larsen: be [00:44:55] across like sales and marketing. what what I believe is gonna happen [00:45:00] as we go forward is kind of the following.

Gabe Larsen: I, I see again, I, I think, I think you're [00:45:05] gonna see a lot of the, the traditional tools die away and I, I do think new vendors are [00:45:10] gonna emerge, but the reason I think that is, I, I'm, I'm believing that we're [00:45:15] moving towards this idea of a real teammate type economy where, [00:45:20] um, there can be a vendor that says, look.

Gabe Larsen: Again, in the past [00:45:25] I rented a thousand different tools from a thousand vendors. I just came from the customer service world [00:45:30] and we, we had BPOs where we hired hundreds of people for roles [00:45:35] from a third party and, and I'm seeing that kind of convergence happen where I think there's [00:45:40] gonna be vendors emerge where you're gonna be Upwork for agentic agents, [00:45:45] Upworks cloud employees, and they will have perspective.

Gabe Larsen: You won't come to 'em and say, [00:45:50] Hey. I'm thinking about a tool, uh, that's like this and you're [00:45:55] gonna come to 'em, like, you go to Upwork right now and you're gonna say, I need an AI SDR. [00:46:00] I need a customer service. I need a, a front desk reception. I need a procurement, I need a [00:46:05] bloop. And, and they're gonna have hundreds of templates in their marketplace of these agent agents.

Gabe Larsen: And you're [00:46:10] just gonna secure again, you'll hire those, which I'd love to get into pricing 'cause I think pricing and [00:46:15] AI is completely broken right now. You are gonna hire those agentic agents and that's gonna create [00:46:20] something that we've never seen before or we haven't seen since Salesforce. I think such horizontal [00:46:25] plays the, the, the, the people right now who are like, I do an AI SDR for SaaS [00:46:30] company.

Gabe Larsen: Oh wow. You're done. You're absolutely already gone. There's a, there's a [00:46:35] thousand of those. I've got companies who they offer that plus 50 other agentic templates [00:46:40] already. Why would I go with you? So you got rev ops leaders saying, Gabe, please, for the love of [00:46:45] everything, that totally, I don't want to go back and have 72 vendors and 70 different tools.

Gabe Larsen: I [00:46:50] want one agentic partner, and with that agentic partner, I wanna hire 30 to [00:46:55] 50 agentic personalities. You have the perspective because the template's [00:47:00] already built. Now we move into this interesting concept again, where we're not renting tools, we're [00:47:05] hiring agentic agents through cross-functional, you know, cross platform.

Gabe Larsen: I could [00:47:10] hire the, I could hire the procurement, I could hire the recruiter, I could hire the AI SDR all [00:47:15] from one agentic, um, partner. And I think, but that perspective's gotta be there. But that, that means [00:47:20] that they don't just come to me and say, build whatever you want. They say, I want the recruiter. And you say, I've got a thousand people who've [00:47:25] already bought the Upwork recruiter.

Gabe Larsen: Why don't you take this, sir? It's slowly [00:47:30] customizable. I think we gotta go there. 'cause man, again, back to the building concept, but I just gotta say [00:47:35] it. I talked to the CIO, he said, Gabe, I can't have a thousand builders running around my company. [00:47:40] I can't let 'em have access. Every MAN needs access to Zendesk.

Gabe Larsen: And he's like, no, no, no, no, [00:47:45] no, no, no, no. I will not allow builders you, we have to have more security and [00:47:50] procedures so not every marketing person can build some flow and connect the [00:47:55] whatever system they want. He said, not in my neighborhood. No.

Craig Rosenberg: All right, [00:48:00] so we have

Craig Rosenberg: seven minutes. Is there. any chance you can [00:48:05] bring a number two

Craig Rosenberg: in and home in the next six minutes so that af [00:48:10] at at the

Craig Rosenberg: end of your six minutes, we can make some

Gabe Larsen: I felt like that was 50. I felt like that was 50.

An AI Vendor's Perspective on Pricing for AI Tools & AI Agents
---

Gabe Larsen: I've [00:48:15] just been real passionate on pricing. Can I just say,

Gabe Larsen: can I, can I

Craig Rosenberg: There you go. Look at that.

Gabe Larsen: [00:48:20] Yeah. I just look, I think, um, AI pricing is just, it's absolutely broken. I just came from the customer [00:48:25] service world, the intercoms, the Zendesk, etc We all tried to go down this of price per [00:48:30] conversation and price per resolution, and we called it

Gabe Larsen: outcome-based pricing.

Gabe Larsen: I, I [00:48:35] just, I wanna raise my hand as someone who did that

Gabe Larsen: and marketed it, it is a [00:48:40] lie. I know. It is a lie. You know, it's a

Gabe Larsen: lie. A price per conversation [00:48:45] that is not an outcome-based pricing. And I'll tell you what, we confuse so many [00:48:50] CFOs. Can I get standard

Gabe Larsen: pricing? I need to have a budget. Well, it's price per [00:48:55] conversational. What's a conversation? What's a resolution? Well, I have my definition of a resolution. What's your [00:49:00] definition? Well, they're different. Well, how do I plan for that? Well, you can't plan for that. Well, I'll use your platform for a couple [00:49:05] weeks and see what I'm using and then, then could I lock into something?

Gabe Larsen: Well, what if I go, [00:49:10] it's messy out there, you guys this taking tokens from [00:49:15] LLMs and then passing that on. In some price per conversation. I'm using customer [00:49:20] service just as an example. 'cause I lived it, breathed it, and died there. Uh, it's absolutely [00:49:25] broken. People hate, customers hate it, vendors hate it, and it absolutely is not working.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:49:30] So what should they do though?

Gabe Larsen: I I'm, I'm, my, my belief is that. you're gonna [00:49:35] move to, you're, you're gonna hire, you're gonna hire agentic agents, Oh. and they will be [00:49:40] salaried based employees in your company. They will come with a series of [00:49:45] characteristics, um, like a normal employee does, and you'll be able to more [00:49:50] or less, uh, be able to hire them based on a, a salary concept.[00:49:55]

Craig Rosenberg: That I'm so glad 'cause I thought you were gonna stammer and say, well, I don't, you know, [00:50:00] you make something up. But that was a real answer. I love that. not that you've

Craig Rosenberg: stammer [00:50:05] much, nor do

Craig Rosenberg: I scowl by the way.

Matt Amundson: here's what I'll

Gabe Larsen: He's not gonna let [00:50:10] me scale down. He's not gonna let me live it

Craig Rosenberg: Well, now I'm scowling, huh?

Matt Amundson: He's gonna bring, he's gonna [00:50:15] bring it up next time he sees

Matt Amundson: you in person. But here's the thing, Craig,

Matt Amundson: I, I'm gonna have to lean in. I'm gonna have to [00:50:20] say something. You're not a scowler. and I'm also gonna have to say, Gabe, you're not a stammerer. [00:50:25] So I just wanna clear

Craig Rosenberg: That snack.

Matt Amundson: before we

Matt Amundson: move

Gabe Larsen: not, sorry, what'd you [00:50:30] say?

Matt Amundson: Alright. I've got a question as a

Matt Amundson: follow on to that [00:50:35] Obviously people would want to hire a full-time employee

Matt Amundson: and their expectation will be, if I'm [00:50:40] hiring an AI agent. That person

Matt Amundson: doesn't have cost of living increases. [00:50:45] Like that person, you know, is. not, uh, subject to inflation. But we all [00:50:50] know on the vendor side, like things do get more expensive.

Matt Amundson: You know, whatever. You're, you're building that [00:50:55] thing, on whatever you're running it on, like, that's gonna get more And more expensive and we can, we've, you know, we [00:51:00] all have boards where, you know, NRR and NDR and all that. stuff matters. Like, [00:51:05] how are we going to one, if we're pricing it on a salary basis? Do [00:51:10] they expect it to be half the cost of a normal employee?

Gabe Larsen: Oh, I love that. I love the start. So [00:51:15] couple, couple things I jump in there. One is if you're, if you're not doing in this new [00:51:20] model one 10, it's about one 10th to one fifth of the full-time employee, you're getting [00:51:25] ripped off. So that's the numbers I'm seeing in the market. To manage costs, companies are gonna [00:51:30] be developing more in-house LLMs.

Gabe Larsen: Uh, again, there's just too many tasks that are simple enough [00:51:35] that you can build your own model. Then you'll basically have a layer that basically chooses which [00:51:40] LLM I'll go to, and one of those. So that I think will help in cost. And then look, the nice thing [00:51:45] about this model that's coming, I can

Gabe Larsen: see the future here, is it it much [00:51:50] like a manager and a senior manager and a director.

Gabe Larsen: You can supercharge cloud employees [00:51:55] if you think you want something. If you want something more, you know, you want something more advanced, you'd go [00:52:00] hire a senior marketer, you know, and their salary wouldn't be 15 to 18 KA [00:52:05] year. It'd be 30 KA year. And guess what? You're gonna get more value from them. And so [00:52:10] when I look at these agent agents, I'm seeing the four characteristics of a salaried cloud [00:52:15] employer.

Gabe Larsen: Usually the intelligence level, usually the communication ability, [00:52:20] usually the knowledge bases, and usually the tool set they come with. Again, [00:52:25] much like a, a current employee, you can get someone who's fairly cheap, you [00:52:30] know, or you could get someone who's more robust and you will pay that for that level of [00:52:35] expertise.

Gabe Larsen: And again, I think you can go pretty darn far. I mean, these, these type of agentic agents, you can [00:52:40] supercharge the crap out of 'em Ironman style. But that's, that's one thing to think about. [00:52:45] Again, just because you have a salary of 15,000 or 10 grand, that's one 10th the [00:52:50] cost of an SDR. If you couldn't supercharge that and get a senior SDR [00:52:55] and pay 'em 25 grand, and guess what?

Gabe Larsen: They're gonna come with more tools and more expertise just like you would in [00:53:00] your re. So I think that's how we'll manage around it. I think that's how we're gonna manage.

Matt Amundson: I [00:53:05] gotta tell you

Matt Amundson: that scares the crap outta me. But I'm, uh, but I like it.

Craig Rosenberg: Why does it [00:53:10] scare the crap outta you

Matt Amundson: It's just, it's, it's, I mean, I don't know. It feels [00:53:15] really weird.

Matt Amundson: I like

Gabe Larsen: Well, man, Again, it might feel weird, but I'm telling you, having done two [00:53:20] years in the battle zone of cost per BS conversation, it's such a [00:53:25] nightmare that it may feel weird, but at least it's something that I feel like we can wrap our heads around and [00:53:30] plan

Gabe Larsen: for.

Matt Amundson: Oh, I totally agree. I totally agree. I think

Matt Amundson: just the change management for normal [00:53:35] human beings to be like, yes, I'm Saling. Uh,

Matt Amundson: an AI is gonna be [00:53:40] wild. Right? Like, you know,

Matt Amundson: just. Sitting across the dinner table with my [00:53:45] wife and be like, what'd you?

Matt Amundson: do today? I'd be like, oh, I hired two people. And they're like oh, great.

Matt Amundson: Where are they from? [00:53:50] Um, the

Matt Amundson: internet.

Gabe Larsen: Well look, Matt, that opens up the whole can. 'cause I think as we move into [00:53:55] this, we're this

Gabe Larsen: autonomous organization. How you manage cloud employees. I mean, I had a, [00:54:00] a VC the other day. Tell me

Gabe Larsen: Gabe, I've been using that this new metric called ECE. I said, what's ECE? [00:54:05] He said, it's employee to cloud employee ratio.

Gabe Larsen: No longer will I let my port cos have, you know, [00:54:10] 200 employees and no autonomous employees. And so now I'm asking them to see, I wanna see a hundred and a [00:54:15] hundred man change management, how you hire it, the coaching ability. I have, I have three [00:54:20] cloud employees that report to me right now and I do a once a week coaching session with them.

Gabe Larsen: I mean this is [00:54:25] such a, the future of work. Has to change as we move towards that autonomous organization. And [00:54:30] I think I, I mean it's gonna be interesting people working side by side with cloud [00:54:35] employees and then agents and that, that autonomous organization, I think it's gonna be fascinating. [00:54:40] Gonna be fast.

Craig Rosenberg: What a great

Craig Rosenberg: show. What a

Craig Rosenberg: [00:54:45] great show. I I, uh, well, I didn't

Craig Rosenberg: expect anything less. That was [00:54:50] amazing. I'm just glad we got you on, bro. that was so good,

Gabe Larsen: You have a baby [00:54:55] man. Geez. You know? Who would've thought two weeks early? Still was 10 pounds though. I

Matt Amundson: What [00:55:00] nice is that your biggest baby? What? What?

Gabe Larsen: Yeah, by far. You know, we've have some six pounder [00:55:05] and 10. This kid is like a goat. He's like a goat.

Matt Amundson: We love it.

Matt Amundson: Let's get a foot. Let's [00:55:10] get a football on his hand

Craig Rosenberg: Quarterback man.

Gabe Larsen: Basketball team. I got the Larson family basketball [00:55:15] team's alive and well, five

Gabe Larsen: boys. I mean,

Matt Amundson: There you go.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, there you go. I like this. I like where this is headed. [00:55:20] Um.

Gabe Larsen: uh, Greg, it's awesome man. I really appreciate it. It's always fun to just, uh, you know, shoot

Gabe Larsen: [00:55:25] the shit a

Matt Amundson: Yeah, please. Come on again, Gabe.

Matt Amundson: This was great.

Gabe Larsen: Yeah, man. Alrighty.

Craig Rosenberg: we'll ping you [00:55:30] and get you back on. Alright guys, that was a [00:55:35] [00:55:40] [00:55:45] [00:55:50] [00:55:55] [00:56:00] [00:56:05] [00:56:10]