The Transaction

TT - 052 - Lauren Goldstein - Full Episode
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Lauren Goldstein: [00:00:00] Having a true customer centric point of view is easier said than done.

It's really starting with like, what is success for you? And we can spend all day talking about all the products, but if I don't really understand that, nothing else matters.

Managing multiple stakeholders in an enterprise sale is not a new thing. but it's more than managing multiple stakeholders, it's really about helping to facilitate a conversation where they're all, understanding the problem in the same way.

companies that are in their growth stages, it's a team sport. It takes everybody.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt, do you notice I'm wearing a SoCal hat on your behalf?

Matt Amundson: It is an angel's hat. Very, it's an odd choice. The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim.

Craig Rosenberg: Why is that an odd

Lauren Goldstein: that a legit team? It's a legit team. I should know this. Is that a team?

Matt Amundson: there we go. There we go.

Craig Rosenberg: This is way too Broy already, man. Lauren's gonna bring us all the

Lauren Goldstein: I told you I am bringing, I am bringing color like reds and, and pinks and oranges. I am bringing flowers. I am. I am

Matt Amundson: design like crazy. I

Lauren Goldstein: I'm girling [00:01:00] up

Matt Amundson: a Nancy Meyers film behind you.

Craig Rosenberg: I actually, we should do a show, Sam, where we just rank, uh, background because I'm gonna say I used to think Sydney's was pretty good because she always gets the flowers from, um, Matilda's bloom box or whatever, and so hers look, but this is,

Matt Amundson: Next level,

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, this is some next level shit. I mean, the flowers are beautiful.

The color combinations of some of the things in the background

Matt Amundson: the bookcases.

Lauren Goldstein: I will say this was a pandemic Rose Saturday luncheon mashup with my girlfriend. That it, it's the product of

that. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: That's amazing. I love it actually. All

Lauren Goldstein: do during the pandemic on a Saturday? Like you just rearranged your background 'cause you stared at it all day.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. By the way, I don't even remember what I did with my background. I, you know, for years I took calls in my basement, in my old house and nobody [00:02:00] noticed or said anything until the pandemic when I was always on a call with them. The thing about the basement too, was it's like five feet tall.

Matt Amundson: low ceiling.

Craig Rosenberg: in, yeah, low, very low ceiling.

Very low ceiling. Um, I could have done, I, I think Matt's background is like.

Matt Amundson: As sterile as it gets. This is eggshell white by the way.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, it's like seventies public school background. Um, and then mine's just an office. It's not cool at all.

Matt Amundson: Well, if, if Craig would just lift his shades, my home is just over his

Craig Rosenberg: That's true.

Lauren Goldstein: seriously, you guys are waving from afar.

Craig Rosenberg: You. I always wanted to, and he is always said he would. And then he never did. He worked here when Sidney was here and he would say to us, you know, I'm gonna paddle board over. And then he never did. He

Matt Amundson: There was, there was no place to lock up my paddleboard.

Lauren Goldstein: That's the transport to and from work these days. Huh?

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. There's a small body of water just right there.

Lauren Goldstein: I love [00:03:00] it.

Craig Rosenberg: He would not get wet. Any. Yeah. So, um, ​

we have a very, very special guest. That's right. Um, so here's the thing. Um, I, as I introduced Lauren, so I've known her for a long time, um, because she's been in like the marketing agency game for I. Ever. Like literally like, yeah. I mean

Matt Amundson: Very short time. Very short time.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt, do you remember Bab Babcock?

Do you remember Babcock and Jenkins? Yeah. Like she was, you would like be just walking down the street, turn around and there was Lauren. There was no harder [00:04:00] hustler on the agency. Customer acquisition front then Lauren, it was.

Lauren Goldstein: Thank you.

Craig Rosenberg: That's how we always knew where you were. so now you're, you're with Winning by Design.

I.

Lauren Goldstein: I am.

Craig Rosenberg: And, um, uh, probably hustling, um, you know, millions of deals there as well. And then, uh, the women in revenue. You know, the thing about women in revenue is we see you guys now all on social all the time. And then, um, uh, you know, I have friends who, you know, I just introduced Lauren to. Catherine Reagan, who I know who's like, Hey, you know the, I'm going to this woman in revenue thing.

Do you think it's cool? I'm like, I know Lauren. So that seems like women in revenue's made a significant comeback, right? Like it's been around for a while.

Lauren Goldstein: It's been around for a while and I think we are definitely getting back into market. So yes, it is definitely making a comeback. We are, we are seeing the need more than ever and we can definitely talk about that later. I'd love to.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, we, we we're happy to talk about that. [00:05:00] So, um, uh, get, uh, listeners to the transaction. Today's guest is my good friend and hustler extraordinaire and literally knower of everyone. If you want like to match networks, like, uh, it'd be tough to beat Lauren. It's Lauren Goldstein who, uh, has the best, also the best background in the history of transaction guests.

Lauren, welcome aboard.

Lauren Goldstein: Thank you, Craig. Thank you, Matt.

Matt Amundson: Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: Do you guys know each other?

Matt Amundson: don't, this is

Lauren Goldstein: I don't think we've met.

Matt Amundson: I've seen her on social, I've seen her around. But this is our first time meeting and I'm, uh, that's, I think that's one of the things I love so much about this show is when there's a, a person that I've always wanted to meet and they're just on the show and they, you know, I get to act like I'm their peer.

It's amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: right? Lauren's one of those where you've known her for years, but you don't know her.

Matt Amundson: Correct. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: exactly, because she's just been like a hundred percent hustle. [00:06:00] Always just great stuff. And by the way, I mean hustle in the most complimentary of terms. Thank you.

Lauren Goldstein: yes, exactly.

Craig Rosenberg: So here's what we do. We, we have two questions that guide the show.

The first one, we have to mention is the Matt Amundson feature Enhancement 2.1 A. So, uh, you know, the, the best stuff on the show has been stories. So he is like, let's just lead with a story. So what we ask the guest is. Like tell us a great go to market story or company building story or anything.

It could be funny, heartwarming, you name it, it's up to you, but like take it away.

Lauren Goldstein: I mean, listen, I think that if I was gonna tell a story, it would be a happy story and it would be, it would be the story of women in revenue. I mean, you asked a little bit about like what my day job is, and, and it is focused on winning by design and helping people be the best go to market.

Strategists that they can be in helping them, you know, thoughtfully grow their business with revenue, architecture. And, and while I care a lot about those things, it's, it's, it's a [00:07:00] great, um, you know, it's a great organization where my heart and soul really is, is with women in revenue and, and the founding story behind the organization.

So if I can take us back to circa, uh, 2018. Um. We, we meaning myself and several of our founders, uh, were at a, uh, Dreamforce and we were sitting in a room and we were listening to some really smart people talk about the, you know, the, the trends and, and what was happening in the world of, of B2B and, and demand and B2B and go to market.

And there was not a single woman up on the stage. And it just kind of hit us all in a, in a similar moment. I'll give a call out to Sherry Johnston, who was also in the room that day and um, a couple weeks later, I get a phone call from her. Um, you know Jen Deus, I'm sure, I know. Everybody knows Jen Deus got a phone call from her.

Tracy Eiler got a phone call from her. So nine women got a phone call from Sherry about three weeks after that event [00:08:00] and said, Hey, listen, like we've all been this, you know, in this business for a long time. We've all been the only girl in the room like. We need to change the dynamics, like who, who wants in?

And she threw out the most like audacious story ever, which was, um, we're gonna, um, fast forward six weeks from now and we're gonna get a hundred women to come together, um, and form, form some sort of a group. I think it'll be something about women in revenue. But yeah, in six weeks from now we're gonna get a hundred women.

And I said, Sherry, you are absolutely outta your mind. This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Um, I'm getting goosebumps. I get goosebumps every time I tell the story, so sure enough, we all go in, we find somebody who has a connection at the battery. We're like, that's a suite venue. We can get women there.

Um, at this point in time, this whole, um, you know, push to get women on boards was a big deal. So we, um, you know, we go out and we find some badass women like Megan. Um, you know, who have, who've done the thing, who [00:09:00] have gotten on, you know, boards and we, we pull her in, we pull in some women from private equity or who are actually helping get women on boards and we assemble this great panel.

We sold out this event. I think we had room for like about 125 people in this room. We sold out this event in three days

Craig Rosenberg: Amazing.

Lauren Goldstein: and we knew we were onto something. So anyway, there's a lot more history there, but I will just share kind of that founding story of. 10 women coming together seeing a common problem, which is how do we get more women in the room to have, you know, to have roles in leadership.

And um, and that was the early days of Women in Revenue.

Matt Amundson: Awesome. What an amazing group of women too. Some of, some of some people I've looked up to my entire career, like Tracy and Sherry, I've just admired them and, and their work. And unfortunately for a long time I actually had to compete with Sherry, uh, at, in, in

Lauren Goldstein: were you? Okay. We won't name names. Got it.

Matt Amundson: We don't have to name names, but man, she, uh, she is just one hell of a marketer and Tracy I've [00:10:00] always looked up to, and she's just, she's just great.

Uh, obviously everybody else in, uh, that you named too is fantastic, but those two are just, just really special people to me.

Craig Rosenberg: I have a pretty funny story of Matt v Sherry.

Matt Amundson: Oh,

Lauren Goldstein: Oh, really? Oh, wow. Do tell.

Craig Rosenberg: So like at Topo we were, we sort of had the, the two roles of analyst and sort of hands on, you know, with the customer and, um, Matt's. Uh, CMO at the time was Jim Walker, who is, he's a knife fighter. He's a swatch Buckler, right? He's, he's playing to win, like in a way you just, you respect like to no end. And so, um, he said, I, I did an interview for him on a product release, I believe, and then, uh, he's like, well, I, how about this?

I'm gonna write a quote, and when you clear it. I'll post it as long as you clear it. [00:11:00] So he's, I mean, he's too, he's too good. He doesn't clear it and it's like, these guys are the best, essentially. I was at Radius where Sherry was the CMO.

Lauren Goldstein: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Doing a sale, supporting a sales training for Robert Kaler in front of like a hundred people.

And I get this ping and I look down and I'm like. Oh my God. That's not my quote, but I can't tell Sherry that's not my quote. So everyone sort of clears out and Sherry just walks over and someone was saying something like that was really great. And Sherry just goes, yeah, if, if Craig hadn't done that ridiculous quote earlier, I think I'd be happy.

Bam. Just. Like nails me and I had to take it because I couldn't say, well, you know, Walker's, you know, uh, did that to me. And, uh, and so I'm like texting Walker. I'm like, dude, like, you know, I'm [00:12:00] sitting, you know, I didn't wanna tell him. I'm sitting in Radius. I'm like, I'm sitting here dying. Dude, you, you didn't get the quote cleared, you gotta take it down. He is like, oh, sorry about that. I'll, I'll do it. And then he does it the next day. He's so good. Like that was like, see amo gamesmanship. So like, and Sherry was so mad and you know, like, uh. You know, I have a, I've been, I've known Sherry for years when she was like, demand gen leader at demand base,

like, and um, man, it was like that was one of the most uncomfortable scenarios of all time.

So yeah, that was Matt v Sherry.

Lauren Goldstein: But Matt's made up for it. Obviously. He's on the good side now.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yeah. I have a ton of respect for her. I, I mean for those keeping score at home, one of our companies was acquired, but just.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh man, there he is. Geez. Oh God. You had to do that. Hey, hey. Going back to your story though, um, I've never understood the why this happened, [00:13:00] uh, like now, right? When you guys had to launch women in Revenue, it always felt like I was always around really high powered, effective women. I never. Yeah, I, I never realized, and then, you know, well, I guess this is part of the problem because once it started to get, you know, more publicity and you guys sort of raised the, the, um, idea.

You know, then I went, oh my God. And then I would be at a, on a panel, you know, with all men, and I'd start to realize that, but I still don't get it because it it, it shouldn't have happened. Because at that point, even when I started to realize that most, you know, a lot of, there was a lot of women in revenue that were doing amazing things.

So like, what, what, what, you know, as you guys sort of dug into this, was it just, I mean, what was it?

I I mean, I think there's a lot of different dynamics. Listen, I don't know that I'm gonna do the perfect job explaining like what some of the [00:14:00] challenges are. So I will share some data, if a little bit of data would be helpful. But, there's a, there's a couple different dynamics that, you know, that we see, like first and foremost, Guys, um, have the benefit of, of some deep networks. And there was a lot of like unofficial mentorship going on and whether that mentorship took place, like on the golf course, whether that mentorship took place around a poker table, um, whether it took place. I mean, I think in a lot of different settings, there was a lot of like, like unintentional, but like important mentorship going on.

Lauren Goldstein: And I think you could say that same thing about like. You know, when, um, you know, private companies were adding, um, board members, like who did they reach out to? They reached out to like people that were in their immediate network. And so all of a sudden you get, um, a lot of like, disparity, not because there was any sort of like intentional, like, hey, let's block the girls out of the room, but more like, Hey, this is in who, who's in my network?

Like, I'm gonna bring 'em to the table. Um, [00:15:00] so I think that that's one kind of issue that we've seen that we're trying to address. And so, um. You know, two of the, the main offerings that we have, the first is, Hey, let's, let's give women and girls an opportunity to get some speaker training. Not, let's not just like, like encourage them to go show up in a room and not be properly trained.

Like, let's first get 'em trained. So we have a speaker's bureau, um, to, to help support that. And the speakers Bureau isn't just for the upleveling, but it's also helping them find the places that they can show up. Um, actually our event earlier this week in New York. We pulled three women into a panel with Tracy Eiler.

All three women were, um, badass leaders, but had never had formal training until they met women in revenue. So that's, that's one example.

Craig Rosenberg: Hmm. Yeah, it's, uh, it's, uh, well, I'm, I mean, I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. Again, I, you know, I'm more confused about how we [00:16:00] got here. I'm not confused about the situation that I can tell. And, and, and you learn a lot, by the way. I think the one thing is I didn't, I. I often don't notice. And that's probably part of the problem.

And, and like, um, you know, like mansplaining, I didn't know that I mansplained and then someone told me, dude, you just mansplained Christina, who by the way, doesn't need a mansplain. And I was like, what does that, what really? And then they, and then occasionally I'll do it and um, I'm like, damn it. But. More importantly, I totally notice it now, right?

I'm like, bro, you man, explained that so hard. And, but it's because you gotta bring that up. You gotta, uh, you, you have to make us conscious of it. It's, it's unfortunate, but it just is like, I just, uh, now that I know it, I look for it all the time. I see it all the time. I try to check myself. I try to, you know, all of those things.

So it's. You're doing, uh, the work you do does make a [00:17:00] difference. If you didn't know that.

Lauren Goldstein: mean, listen, like, you know, men there, there is, the men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Like I, you know, when you ask like, what's the genesis of it? Like, it just may be like what our DNA looks like, Craig. I am sure there is a much more like thoughtful forward looking or, you know, academic answer to it.

But I just think men and women are different. Like. Um, I share this both from a statistics perspective, but also from my own experience. I have a sales team. There are men on the team and there are women on the team. And, and I can share this story from every company that I've been in. The men a hundred percent of the time push harder in the negotiation for their salary a hundred percent of the time.

And the women don't ask. And it's something that is just like, I think court, you know, court of the DNA. Um, along those lines, actually, I was at a, a Women in Revenue event last week. Amanda, Kayla, it was an amazing thing. She, she pops up and she said one thing she's committed to now is when that happens, actually saying to the women, like, [00:18:00] Hey, do you know what your counterpart asks for?

And, and making sure that, that she helps to not just create parody. She doesn't wanna like, give out extra money. That's not her point. Her point is educating the woman in the process to say like. This is something important you need to do.

Matt Amundson: I mean, I think, you know, it's, it's so interesting to me because I, I came to Silicon Valley later in my career, so I wasn't here until like 2011 and the first time I was at Dreamforce, it, there was, you know. Equal parts, men and women. I worked at Marketo and the leaders there were pretty well balanced.

You know, I was very lucky to work with Maria Perino, who's like long been a champion of diversity in the workplace, like long before people started talking about it from a DEI perspective and really early on, you know, one of the things that she, she sort of, uh, taught me about was this concept that like if you have a diverse leadership team, like you're better.

You're better actually. Like all the, all the reports point [00:19:00] to the fact that your company's gonna be more successful. You want like not just the diversity of people, but the diversity of ideas and you're selling to all different types of people. You're marketing to all different types of people. It's important that those folks are represented on your operating team, and that's something that I've always taken to heart and I can recognize it from.

Places where I've been earlier in my career that were very male dominant and it's sort of like, Hey, maybe they were successful, maybe they weren't. But I've always been around organizations that were truly successful and they all had one thing in common. They had diversity in the leadership team.

Lauren Goldstein: so beautifully said, Matt. Thank you. Yes, I love that.

Craig Rosenberg: Look at Matt. it was, I know that's like a big heart.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, Craig often sort of takes credit for giving me my first public speaking opportunity, which is largely true. But, uh, just prior to

that, yeah, Tracy gave me my first public speaking opportunity and I actually spoke at sales kickoff at Inside View, and this [00:20:00] was maybe like two months before.

And like, it may seem like something really silly to say, like, Hey, as a, you know, come here as a, to our SKO. To our SKO and present as a customer, but it was really nerve wracking. There was like, you know, 400 people in the room and it was this really great growth experience for me and I owe her a lot because of that.

Because, you know, over the course of the next five years I went on, I spoke at a topo summit. Then next thing I knew I was. Speaking at Saster that I was speaking at Dreamforce, and it all just kind of snowballed from there. And it's like these, these simple moments where you just give somebody an opportunity to speak their mind in front of a group.

Most people don't get that opportunity. And I think that that's one of the things that you're hinting at here, is like there's people who are great, there are people who are talented, but they don't often get the opportunity or the recognition to speak in front of people, to have a a, a seat at a board.

To, uh, you know, present at a large scale conference, like, like Dreamforce and, and, and recognizing that and saying, Hey, we wanna make a change here [00:21:00] because these people are talented. We're not just forcing people on the stage for the, for the sake of forcing 'em onto the stage, but it's sort of a, you know, hey, we wanna recognize greatness, and it comes in all forms.

Lauren Goldstein: Right, right.

Matt Amundson: Love that.

Lauren Goldstein: No, I, listen, we need, we need to get you into the Women in Revenue community, Matt, like, please join and, and

Matt Amundson: feel like I know all these, all these founders of it, like they're some of the best sales and marketing people I've ever met in my career.

Lauren Goldstein: and listen, I

Craig Rosenberg: look great.

Lauren Goldstein: yeah, the events, I mean, the food's good. The drinks are good. I, and I mean, to be perfectly honest, like. We all can cite stories too, of having amazing male mentors in our life. Like almost every woman in revenue can, can lean into that. So, um, like, yes, join, get involved, be a mentor. Um, it's so, it's so, so important.

Uh, you know, and I'd say that's the other kind of big thing. So if, if the speaking side of it and helping get women trained and upleveled with their speaking. The other side of it is just pure mentorship. Um, you know, back to the comment of [00:22:00] like. It's unbelievable how women have such a hard time saying, actually I'm worth more.

And having a mentor who can kind of, um, not only, you know, educate you on, on, you know, what, you know, average salary should be or how to negotiate your exit package. Actually, that's something Reagan and I were talking about that women never do. Like how do you negotiate your exit packet of on the way in, um, you know, and, and just even things like how to balance work in life.

Um, and, and some people don't love the word balance. Sometimes people like it's, you know, how do you integrate it or how do you, you know, whatever it is. But, but those things are all really coachable and it's nice to have someone who can, you know, have eyes that have traveled further than yours.

Matt Amundson: Yeah,

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That was a meaty first section on the story there. It was, uh, high impact. High

Lauren Goldstein: Glad you asked.

B2B Tech Brands Are NOT Connecting Buyers in the Ways That SaaS Buyers Want
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Craig Rosenberg: So, uh, the second question, um, [00:23:00] is, you know. When we started the show, the idea was that a new playbook is emerging on go to market. And you know, we were talking to people trying to figure those things out and um, we started to have fun Having those conversations.

We're like, well, let's take it to a podcast. And so we do. Every show is guided by this question, which is what's something that the market thinks they're doing? Right? Approach, methodology, strategy, tactics, whatever. And they're actually wrong and they should be, you know, thinking differently. And what is it and what should they be doing about it?

Go.

Lauren Goldstein: So I had a think on this. It's a great, first of all, it's a great question, um, and I don't want to assume that the whole market is doing it wrong, but having a true kind of customer centric point of [00:24:00] view is easier said than done. I think. The majority of brands out there, the majority of tech companies, that's kind of the world that a lot of us live in, think that they are meeting customers in a way that is helpful.

I really do. I think brands think that they're meeting customers in a way that is helpful. And as somebody who has the benefit of having spent most of my career in consulting, I've worked with, you know, over, uh, over 1500 tech companies. Easy, you know, startups, um, scale ups, um, you know, the likes of the Googles and the Microsofts and the Dells.

The big guys, and I will tell you if there is one pattern recognition that is more prominent in all of these companies, and maybe not all, that's, that's too strong in the majority of these companies, it's that they think that they're connecting with their customers in the way that the customers want.

And in fact, you still get that show up and, and talk about the product over and over and over and over again.

Craig Rosenberg: Isn't it unreal?

Matt Amundson: [00:25:00] Mm-hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: But you know, you've always Actually I have one for you. Dive it. Well, do you want to keep going or can I just, No, I love the segues. They're good. Go.

because you are great. So let me just make sure everyone understands it's not just the hustle, like the customer acquisition. By the way, agency work is hard, right?

Getting new customers is hard. It's all about you gotta get the one and keep it and then try to grow it. Uh, Lauren has always been the best in the business, so like now, wow. What have you changed in the way you engage with customers or haven't you? And like, what could we learn from you and how you do it?

Lauren Goldstein: That's a great question. I mean, I think that, you know, if there's, if there's one question that I've asked, you know, even back in the days of Babcock Jenkins, it's usually starting with something like, you know, Craig, we're, you know, we're here, we're talking about our go to market, but like, what, what's success look like for you?

And I think it's really starting with like, what is success for you? And we can, you know, [00:26:00] spend all day talking about all the products that we have that we can, you know, help ensure that that happens. But, but if I don't really understand that, nothing else matters.

Craig Rosenberg: So that's not new, but so do we feel like we got away from it? Is that kind of the deal? Because what you described in ri in, in this in your answer is a definite issue. Like

a hundred percent. But like how did we get there? Because like that question you have, if you've been doing it since Babcock, that's 15, 20 years,

Lauren Goldstein: yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: were you know, I, everyone?

Lauren Goldstein: am I better than everyone else? No, I don't know. I dunno. Do people start there? Like, like I think about, um, you know, in the early days at Babcock for instance, I mean, one thing that we. Help companies do better than anyone else was to really like, get to the heart of who their buyer personas were and map content.

I mean, at that time, that was a very provocative thing. We actually, um, one of my orange, those three [00:27:00] balls back there, that was a content marketing award when the Content Marketing Institute was like big on the scene. But it,

Matt Amundson: did everything in, they did everything in orange.

Lauren Goldstein: Everything in orange and like I am so proud of that award. Um, but it really was about, you know, being customer centric in the heart of it.

Right. And, and, and when I went to go and work at Annuus, I, I would say that they did an amazing job of really helping to understand what customer pain points were and not just developing an amazing content. To address the needs of customers, but they were also and still are amazing at stitching together the technology to deliver, you know, right time, right place, right message.

Um, you know, and I even look at winning by design and, and the reason why I love being in an organization like this is that they use this framework called spiced, which stands for understanding a customer's situation, the pain, the impact that they both need rationally and emotionally. The critical event that they're up against and the decision and how that decision will get made.

[00:28:00] Like if I look across like the three kind of primary places I've spent my career, each of these companies is obsessed and focused on understanding what the customer needs to be successful.

Craig Rosenberg: is that a missing piece for the vast, I, I'm just like, I,

I Provoke, prod.

Yeah, I know. I, I actually, I think it's wild that we're still talking about that. How's that? Like, uh, isn't it crazy like,

Lauren Goldstein: tell me, listen at, you know, at scale and in, in the roles that you're at, you, you talk to companies all day long. I mean, do you think. When you see the pitch, do you think that it's with the customer in mind, or is it with the like dream of what the product either does or someday could do? That is like the dazzling object of the call.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, well first of all, uh, our portfolio, they all pitched fantastically, Lauren, so I'm gonna actually, no, actually we got the perfect thing, Lauren, for [00:29:00] your question. Matt gets pitched all the time, so like, let, Matt, are, do you feel like you're the folks who are understanding your needs better than before or are we people going right to what Lauren just described?

Matt Amundson: I think, I think, uh, I think what Lauren's talking about is really appropriate for what's happening right now, because more often than not, the pitches that I hear today are, let me tell you about the way you should want it to be, instead of understanding what I actually want and then how to integrate that solution into.

What I'm building, what my goals are, you know, the way I want my department to be structured, et cetera. People today just to show up and they're kind of like, Hey, we've got this thing and it does this, and it's really all about them, right? And like they'll be like, oh no, no, no, we're, it's all about you. I gotta do all this discovery and whatnot.

And it's not, it's not. And I know that it's not. And there's been like. The reality is, [00:30:00] is since I've been, uh, uh, in a position to be buying something, you know, maybe for the last 10 years of my career, there's like two or three times in my entire career where I've actually been on a sales call that like truly stood out and was actually about me or actually about my business.

And I can remember them super, super clearly. The rest all feel like the same. Like, uh, I, I, I, you know, I couldn't, determine one from the other. They're, they're all kind of the same. I do think, and I, I don't mean to like try to diagnose how we got here, but I do think the sales tactics that were.

Uh, and tactics might be the wrong word, but like the sales culture of the pandemic did really blunt a lot of edges. And what I mean by that is like people got really lazy with the way they sold during that time period. And I think that there is also an entire generation of sellers that had their first sales jobs during that time period.

And. They don't understand fundamentals. They don't really know, you know, Hey, what did it take to move product in [00:31:00] 2010 or 2005, for that matter, right? Like they are so used to, hey, someone's coming inbound because they need a thing, and I'm just gonna show 'em what the thing is and then I'm gonna send 'em a contract and whizzbang off and running.

And I just don't think that that moves product today. It just, it just doesn't, I, I can tell you, having been sold to, for, you know, ever since I, well since starting this job, like there's nothing that stood out to me in a sales cycle. Nothing

Craig Rosenberg: Take that sales reps that have pitched matter over the last 10 months,

Matt Amundson: in your face.

Craig Rosenberg: that that means Lauren's comment is correct. 99%, you know, like that. Uh, basically that's what you're saying. Hey, I've got one for you guys, I gotta get your reaction. 'cause you know, I called, uh, Dan Gottlieb and I'm like, I.

'cause we're having our go to market summit and it's how to market and sell ai. And I'm like, well, what are you seeing? And he had all this cool stuff, but one that he said that they, that they're seeing that, 'cause the thing with AI is he, as you guys know, you gotta, like, he has this saying, which [00:32:00] is, uh, sell the work then the ai, right?

So you gotta figure out the work. And he's like, but that's on the, on the. Yeah, the buyer's side. Here's the thing he said, one of the tactics he said is the reverse demo where you don't demo your product. You have them outline what they're doing and how they're set up as that's the demo you take. All right.

Reaction to that Lauren?

Lauren Goldstein: I, I, I'm, I like it. I mean, I think that, um, if they're trying to demonstrate to the seller. I mean, the problem they're trying to fix, is that what he is suggesting with the reverse demo? Like I like the notion of it.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. But you said it like in the jobs to be done scenario, like oftentimes we're gonna come on and, um, I don't know. I'm just trying to think of in, in sales tech, you know, it's like you, you sort of, may you maybe you either have a whole breadth of things that you sell or you have one thing.

In either [00:33:00] use case, we, uh, you know, in the breadth, we go in and we go.

So tell me what keeps you awake at night? Right. Um, in the very specific one, we try to lock it in this very specific area. In both cases, we're better served for them to tell us the work, how do you work, how you know what things are happening, where's the real latency? Um, you see what I mean? So like, it, I think it's a really, it's a brilliant idea.

He was talking about, I don't remember. If he named names, but he was talking about like one company that had, you know, does a shared Miro board and they draw together. Actually, colo said, you know, he used to do that at Outreach too, right? And so this reverse demo idea is really intriguing to me. I. It's hard to guess.

You know, we always, we make a big deal about AI and all these things where you can get, you can get some cap data capture that will allow you to at least drive interest, but like to really dig in, which is what you guys are talking about, right? And really get relevant. We have to understand, you know, what they're trying to achieve and [00:34:00] then work backwards for how they're exactly what they're doing today and where the holdups are, and that's where the reverse demo comes in.

So, I don't know, what do you

guys, I love, I love the notion of it. Matt, I'm curious what you're, what you're seeing.

Matt Amundson: I think it works for the right types

of buyers. Here's who it,

here's the buyer that I don't think it would work for

marketers.

And here's the thing, like I worked in MarTech for a long time,

there's a phrase,

right? The, and people don't use

this all the time anymore, but like, uh, you know, buyers are liars, right?

And there is no greater liar as a buyer. than a marketer. A marketer will lie and tell you all the things that they're doing because they have so much debt. They have so much like process debt, tech debt, like, you know, they're just trying to stay up, up to date with like what their board's expecting, what their CEO's expecting.

Like they will not tell you the truth about their process. They'll be like, oh

yeah, we run the cleanest

Marketo instance, or we have the cleanest reporting in [00:35:00] Salesforce and like they don't. They don't, the other thing that marketers often don't realize is like their problems are really ubiquitous, right?

So they're like, they hold their little problems inside their little, they play it very close to the vest, right? They're just like,

no, no,

no. This is, this is unique. All marketers have the same problems, all of them. Every single one, but they don't like to admit it. So

I think like that is a very tough

sales tactic

to run

on a marketer.

But I think in other, towards other audiences, it's brilliant. Especially in things like IT infrastructure, people who are really willing to

sit down

and diagram. Most marketers I think would just be like, oh yeah, well, you know, I'm looking for this AI solution that does this, that and the other. Uh, tell me about your process today.

Well, we run a super clean process,

but we're just looking for

some level of scale. The

problem is

that that's probably not true.

Lauren Goldstein: Liars.

Craig Rosenberg: Well, Lauren has to sell to you guys all the time, so I'm, I'm sure. Uh. Yeah, she opens up. Okay, so

I, I'm calling uh, then, then

Matt Amundson: I gotta ask the [00:36:00] question, uh,

Lauren, which, which buyers are the biggest liars?

Craig Rosenberg: Oh God, you're gonna get her in trouble with, she did persona work, Matt, like she knows

her person.

Lauren Goldstein: I mean, listen, there's, you

Matt Amundson: if it's marketers, blink twice.

Lauren Goldstein: I was gonna say, we, we used to, we used to joke at, at, um, one of the organizations I was with, that there was three kinds of buyers, and there's ones that you, you know, that you love the most. I mean, there's those that know everything and the ones that know everything, honestly.

Are probably gonna waste a lot of your time. And, and they're gonna end up buying based on a set of criteria that will never be transparent, like not, not the best kind to dance with. Um, and then there's the type that don't even know enough to be dangerous. And those are the type that are gonna really struggle to get anything approved by an executive team or a board because they just, they're just not deep enough into it.

And, and in that case, you've kind of gotta go around them and, and, and work with the board or the CEO or whoever's making the case and the best kind. Um, you know, the kind that I, I love to have, you know, [00:37:00] myself and our team point towards are those that know enough to be dangerous and know what good looks like and are therefore willing to kind of open up, you know, the conversation and be real and, and say like, listen, here's what I think good looks like, but I can't, like I don't have it on paper, or I can't make the business case for it.

Like, help me. And when you can get to that point, like 10 times outta 10, you've gotta win and you really know what's going to make it a win for them. You've invested the time.

Craig Rosenberg: So that sounds Matt, like a, like a reverse demo from Lauren on steroids and she's extracting the right information. But actually the, the, the thing that I was really intrigued by with l Lauren on that is the nuance in the persona that, um, the, you know, the persona that works great, you know, for her is the.

Leadership or the, you know, whoever you're working with, I get, you know, it could be organizational leadership that knows what good looks [00:38:00] like because then you know, that way you can work together and they actually probably have a better definition of what the problems look, uh, problems look like. Um, that's intriguing.

All right, so. What reverse demo concept. Great. In practice, we'll have to see, according to Matt, do not try said reverse demo to CMOs 'cause they will lie. Is that right?

Matt Amundson: Well marketers, maybe not CMOs, but marketers.

Craig Rosenberg: All right. All right. Yeah. So I get that. I get that. Uh, what about on the marketing side, like with the folks that you're working with, are they, um, is there something, are there things that they're doing that you are noticeably different?

From your years of experience today based on changing buying behavior, that's notable for us to think about as a, as a market,

Lauren Goldstein: I mean, listen, I'd say the number of marketers that, that, that I'm selling into today is more limited. It's more. I'd say go to market as a whole. Um, [00:39:00] and

that's just, yeah, it is a trend in of itself. Um, I mean, I think, and, and I, and I don't know if this is where you're pointing the question, but two anecdotes I'll share.

Um, one is that, you know, it used to be that we needed to get product and marketing and sales aligned. And I even remember years ago getting on stage, you know, um, making a correlation of the three amigos needing to ride into the sunset together. Like it was a very, like. Small and narrow group, and you needed to drive alignment.

And I would say that when we work, you know, when we look at like what it takes to really make smart buying decisions today, um, you know, there's a whole cast of, you know, people that have important roles and go to market. You've got your rev ops team, you've got your marketing team, you've got your sales team, you've got, you know, your, uh, fp and a like finance is a critical part of it.

And so I do think. Um, you know, driving alignment and helping to be the thread that connects all of the team members in a decision, um, is [00:40:00] really, really important. Uh, again, I don't know if that's where you were going with the comment, but that's, that's something that I see as critical between the teams that are successful in, in connecting with customers as they're understanding the dynamics of it.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, that's new,

Lauren Goldstein: I don't, you know, it's, it's hard to know if it's new or not. I mean, managing multiple stakeholders in an enterprise sale is not a new thing. But, but, but it's more than managing multiple stakeholders, it's really about helping to facilitate a conversation where they're all, you know, understanding the problem in the same way and can connect back to, you know, to a, a common denominator.

And I think that that's, that's super, super important.

Craig Rosenberg: But then like if you're going into work with a organization on go to market, which I think is new, the fact that it's not one place, you're looking at the entire, uh, revenue cycle and helping there, I think that's new. Um, but [00:41:00] who do you like, who is the. Who's off? Are you brought in through one function and then that's, you bring them all together?

Or is there, like how, who do you work with? If we're looking at the entire go to market.

Lauren Goldstein: I think that that depends on the organization, right? When you get into a company, um, you know, in some cases you've got someone in an fp and a role who has been brought in to help the company think about, you know, what it's gonna take to go public. And, and they are looking at a very kind of specific set of metrics that's gonna be critical.

Um, in another case, you've got, you know, a CEO who has just gotten backed by private equity and they know they've got, you know, two to three years to, um, you know, get the, the company to a certain number. And so they've got a set of objectives. So it really depends on, I think, where a business is in its maturity.

Um, you know, to answer that question of like, who cares [00:42:00] most, but I mean, as both of you know, from, you know, from all your work and go to market and, and your work with all these, you know, companies that are in their growth stages, like it really, it's a team sport. Like it takes everybody,

Craig Rosenberg: Yep.

Lauren Goldstein: it takes everybody.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, without a doubt. But like Matt, in your organizations, like if I were gonna sell to you guys, like who would I go to to talk about the go to market?

Matt Amundson: Yeah, I mean at, at this point, I think just because new CMO new CRO in the organization, you'd have to talk to both of us because we're reshaping the go-to-market strategy right now. And I think every decision that that Kelly's making is a decision that, uh, impacts me. Every decision that I'm making is a decision that impacts her.

And so, you know, we're pretty tightly aligned right now. I mean, I don't know if that lasts for forever, especially as a business starts to scale. But at this point, you'd have to sell to both of us. And then you'd want to have our rev ops in the room as well, you know, to understand [00:43:00] like, how are we gonna do the implementation here?

How are we gonna measure the success? It, it only makes sense to be selling a committee al, already at an early stage of a business.

Lauren Goldstein: Yeah, that sounds right.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I think that in the early I, I think that's right. By the way, I forgot. So your CRO is a woman in revenue. Does Lauren know about her?

Matt Amundson: Do you know I know who, I don't know if I know her, but we need to rope her in.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt. Matt, please support the cause. Thank

Lauren Goldstein: Yeah. Yeah, we the CRO at Gainsight beforehand.

Oh,

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, you probably ran into her. Yeah. Alright.

Lauren Goldstein: gonna say yes.

Craig Rosenberg: you know what I've noticed in the, in the, um, I would say in the last two years, the most. The, uh, best integrated go-to market, let's call it Series C up. 'cause I, my World Series A, a and B, like, you know, that's, you do have to do what Matt said, or the CEO is a go-to market folk, which is very rare.[00:44:00]

Uh, you know, you would have to do the sort of C-R-O-C-M-O combo, but I would say the most integrated go-to market C uh, round C up, what I've seen and everyone is they have a strategic rev ops. The strategic rev ops folks are amazing. They understand all the, uh, machinery in the business. They understand the metrics.

They're like, if you talk to Tom Murtaugh, do you remember him from Big id? He's a, he's a operating partner now, but like that dude. The CMO, she still did her own thing, but that guy knew that all the ties that bind and like he knew where the real issues were, that we should spend time in the go to market to accel either accelerate or grow things.

And that's, he's not, he's, he's is on common. But folks, organizations that have strategic rev ops, like him, um, those folks are their integration. The team sport [00:45:00] playing is incredible. Um, and, you know, I actually have to look back where, where he reported, you know, I'm not sure they always need to report to the CRO, depends on the CRO, but like when you, when you have like that strategic rev ops.

Uh, that is one of the tells that I have that, you know, these folks are thinking about the entire life cycle together. I don't know if you guys have seen that, but I, I think that is, that's not quantitative qualitative, but that's, it feels like a real thing.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, I think the first time I ran into a person like that is, uh. He, he's in a portfolio company at, uh, uh, at scale now. He, he is, uh, runs that function at Socure and that's Colin Gerber. And that was the first time, yeah, that was the first time I saw somebody who would, was super strategic as, as an ops professional.

And he reported into the, uh, chief Financial Officer for a while. Um, and like it was [00:46:00] a, it. Like, it was a skillset I had never seen before where it was, you know, somebody who, you know, understood, you know, both the, the, the sales and marketing stack understood. Reporting all that, but also had like an fp and a slant to him.

Like, you know, he was really driving my decisions around

Lauren Goldstein: It is a magician. I mean,

here's the deal. I mean, the, the thing with somebody like that is that when you understand how to architect

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Lauren Goldstein: and everybody in the organization is understanding what that growth architecture looks like, and I I I, I am gonna like lead the witness a little bit and say, you know, that is part of the pleasure of what I get to do now is to help companies think about this notion of revenue architecture.

But there really is a math and a science behind how to build smart companies. And then somebody who understands the math and science of it and then can architect, you know, the technology and the infrastructure like that is magic. And I really do think, um, that is [00:47:00] game changing in organizations now. They don't always hold the power, but as long as they report into, you know, again, the head of finance or the head of revenue, and I think there's a lot of debate about which one it should be.

Some even. Push to report into the CEO. And again, there's pros and cons of all of those, but if everyone on the team back to the question, you know, one or two questions ago, like, that's the money, that's the magic.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, it was wild that Lauren went to fp and a by the way. In the early part of one of your answers, I, that intrigued me. Um, that intrigued me quite a bit. And then you're right, like some of, by the way, the finance function's role in bringing people together. Underrated,

Lauren Goldstein: Underrated.

Craig Rosenberg: So underrated.

Lauren Goldstein: I mean, you, you are right.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you are right. At the end of the day, I mean, sales and marketing, you know, have the accountability for growth,

Craig Rosenberg: Right.

Lauren Goldstein: but if it's not. You know, [00:48:00] aligned to the business and, and what the business outcomes are, then it doesn't matter. So, again, you know that in, in a good way, all of their goals are interchangeable.

Matt Amundson: Yep.

Craig Rosenberg: is truth. Truth, sayer, truth sayer right there. The um, so that I think. Um, on the rev, whether you call it revenue architecture or whatever, that might be the, um, that, that is a really good point. And I know you don't worry, I, the self-fulfilling prophecy is relevant there 'cause you know that you're helping people get there.

I. Um, and I think, you know, Adam, we had Adam on the show, the annuity, um, side of things, you know, thinking that same way so that, you know, I can, I I I can see where you've seen good here and help people get there. I think that's really important. I, I do think it's, I. Uh, there's, there's still like, I'm, I, I'm still learning and trying to figure out what the formula is here.

People always get in the [00:49:00] way, um, of these things we had, you know, um, and that, that, that makes it tough. And that's why I'm really intrigued by the idea of either Rev ops or fp these, these other folks in the organization. Not to go back to that, but I think that's really interesting. But I think the most important point is what, uh, Lauren said, which is like, it's hard to win right now, and if you don't, it has to be a team sport.

I think of it like whenever I'm watching my kids play basketball and like there's a kid on the other team or not on my kid's team. Thank you. Now, um, who just trying to dribble and take the whole go one on five.

Lauren Goldstein: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: It's like, well, he, you know, he makes some, but like, you can't win that way. And like, you know, that, that's kind of, I don't think it's actually always the person who's trying to go one on five in business that it, I think it's often the organization hasn't sort of solved for that to make it five on five.

And, um, and that's like [00:50:00] today, like you have to be able to throw the book at winning business. And so working together. And, you know, creating a, a revenue architecture or revenue process or whatever you want to call it, that you can look at, that's where everyone's working together across the various touchpoint of the buyer.

Makes total sense. Um, so there you have it. Anything else we want to add? We're at, like, we're at the buzzer. You got two minute warning.

Lauren Goldstein: Uh, I mean, listen, I would love if there's a way to give a call to action to women in revenue.org. Um, I will say it is a free organization to become a member of. Um, we know from our recent study that you can also get on that website that 44% of women, um, would like to have a mentor believe that it's more important now than ever and don't know how to find one.

So, uh, you can actually come to this site and any of the women in the scale portfolio, any of the women in the companies that you work with, um, can come and get a mentor for free. Uh, and or volunteer to be a [00:51:00] mentor, uh, guys too. So we'd love to pull people in. We'd love to give everyone that leg up. Um, and, and, you know, fulfill the, the promise of one woman helping another woman be better than she could be on her own.

Matt Amundson: I love that.

Craig Rosenberg: Ending on with a motivational plug. It served for both plug and motivation. So by the way, Lauren's going to Tulum and she was pretending. It's not like a, she she place to go. She's like, oh no, it's kind of rough around the edges down there. She's gonna be doing yoga. Like all that kind of, you know, it's very, how many pictures did we see of stars cruising the beaches of Tulum back in the, I mean, it, it, it's like the spot.

I'm, I'm very

Lauren Goldstein: Well now, now the Goldsteins are showing up, so you know, watch out paparazzi, here we come.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, I'm sure. I sure will.

Lauren Goldstein: I'm looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to it. deserve it.

[00:52:00]