The Transaction

TT - 076 - Kacie Jenkins - Full Episode
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Kacie Jenkins: [00:00:00] The key to winning is real, true, authentic differentiation.

Kacie Jenkins: As [00:00:05] you're coming into a crowded category, you have to seize the story and own the [00:00:10] narrative in order for anyone to remember you. The best way to do that is with the person with the highest [00:00:15] conviction

Kacie Jenkins: which is your founder.

Kacie Jenkins: There's this whole lore that founders need to build around what they [00:00:20] stand for

Kacie Jenkins: It's the art of building a movement around yourself that people can relate [00:00:25] to.

Kacie Jenkins: I've worked across B2B and B2C, so I think I have a unique slightly, [00:00:30] weird point of view on what bold means.

Kacie Jenkins: How do you become [00:00:35] unforgettable, how do you become the brand that people can't stop thinking about?

Kacie Jenkins: Brand's making a comeback,

Kacie Jenkins: It's [00:00:40] a force multiplier. I don't know why everyone isn't doing this but I think [00:00:45] it's one of the best places to start when you're early stage.

Craig Rosenberg: By the way, fun fact, [00:00:50] I am going to Las Vegas with my 10-year-old son [00:00:55] today, and, um, I, I think I told Kate [00:01:00] it's,

Kacie Jenkins: It is a baseball tournament.

Craig Rosenberg: It's a baseball tournament, but it's on Halloween. [00:01:05] I'm just like, you guys, uh, yeah. No, I'm basically gonna have to tell coa [00:01:10] uh, the flight, I have my thing down.

Craig Rosenberg: Hey, you're about to see things [00:01:15] that I need you to unsee by the end of the trip. I mean, I'm like, [00:01:20] guys, it's not like the people there are dressed as Freddy Krueger. Like this is good that outfits are [00:01:25] gonna be just, I don't know, man. He's gonna see some shit, but

Kacie Jenkins: gonna be [00:01:30] intense.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. But they are trick or treating in Henderson.

Kacie Jenkins: Oh, well that's [00:01:35] cute.

Craig Rosenberg: They have, the whole team has like outfits and so they all [00:01:40] have nicknames. Did you know they all did like, you know, hardcore, you know, [00:01:45] og, gangster, like all these things. And my son chose his nickname. You know what he chose,

Matt Amundson: What?

Kacie Jenkins: [00:01:50] What

Craig Rosenberg: Larry?

Matt Amundson: Oh,

Craig Rosenberg: I give him [00:01:55] so much credit for that. I mean, think about that. It's funny.

Matt Amundson: it is funny.

​[00:02:00] [00:02:05] [00:02:10] [00:02:15] [00:02:20]

Craig Rosenberg: Okay.

Craig Rosenberg: Do you guys know each other by the way?

Matt Amundson: Sort

Kacie Jenkins: Now we do.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:02:25] Okay, because

Kacie Jenkins: share the same prison cell.

Craig Rosenberg: ca that's in [00:02:30] many places. That's not good. Um, so, uh, [00:02:35] by the way, Kacie is awesome, dude.

Matt Amundson: Go. I know

Craig Rosenberg: [00:02:40] I've known her now.

Matt Amundson: seen her speak many times. She's very

Craig Rosenberg: Right, right. And I knew her [00:02:45] stuff from before just 'cause of the amazing LinkedIn work, but like dude, now I've been hanging [00:02:50] out with her. She's amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: This is a great guest for the show.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:02:55] I appreciate it.

Craig Rosenberg: we got to do this LinkedIn road show together and we've been hanging out [00:03:00] and she's brilliant.

Kacie Jenkins: It's been so fun.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, and so I was

Craig Rosenberg: like, [00:03:05] we gotta have her on the show. so here's the deal. Um, so Kacie [00:03:10] is a, uh, amazing, uh, [00:03:15] CMO. For anybody. But what I've really [00:03:20] loved was watching the work at Sendososo, the way they [00:03:25] tackled social LinkedIn, uh, frankly, everything, they were everywhere, [00:03:30] right? And then, and they did eat the market by the way. [00:03:35] Too over that course of time while Kacie was there, right there, there just, there were other people in the [00:03:40] market, and I think they all are now under the umbrella of Sendososo because these [00:03:45] guys, uh, basically just took over the market and Mindshare and brand [00:03:50] was a major part of it.

Craig Rosenberg: So like Kacie's not just about [00:03:55] the, you know, social megaphone, but about brand. She al, she created a category at Fastly [00:04:00] that. I've been reading, I read about on LinkedIn where she was like, her basically [00:04:05] laid it all on the line for this category, faced a lot of resistance and, and [00:04:10] built it. I don't know what it was, sorry, Kacie, I'm not a techno, I'm not that technical, but like, that's [00:04:15] the kind of person that should be on this show.

Craig Rosenberg: Not just 'cause of your personality, but [00:04:20] because, uh, you are a person that can, uh, build. [00:04:25] Corporate brand, personal brand, and put those two things together [00:04:30] and build companies and that's why you're here. So everyone, Kacie [00:04:35] Jenkins

Kacie Jenkins: Wow. Thank you, Craig.

Craig Rosenberg: It's true, by the way. I don't write [00:04:40] any of that doubt. That is like my true feelings.

Craig Rosenberg: And now we're been hanging out. We did a call last week. Matt, you [00:04:45] didn't, are you jealous?

Matt Amundson: Yeah, of course.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay, cool. That's good. [00:04:50] Alright, so there's two parts to the show. So one, so number one is we ask [00:04:55] every guest to tell us, uh, um, uh, a story that means something to them. It could be funny, it [00:05:00] could be heroic or whatever, ABX about B2B, but if not, we did have, our [00:05:05] most famous story was about Brent.

Craig Rosenberg: Adamson and about maggots on a plane flight he [00:05:10] had, and that was very popular. We're okay with that. We like to laugh. We like to cry. You, [00:05:15] you, you do what you do. And then the second part

Kacie Jenkins: stories.

Craig Rosenberg: No, please. We, well, we don't need [00:05:20] another one. Yeah, we, yes. Yet, [00:05:25] yet. Um, and then the second one is we want to hear, um, you know, we [00:05:30] built the show based on this idea that, uh, the, it's, it's different [00:05:35] now.

Craig Rosenberg: Extremely different trying to B2B Go-To-Market these days. And so we'd like to [00:05:40] hear sort of your sort of one to three things you would say, work in today's world, and then that's the [00:05:45] show. We just kind of take it from there.

Accidentally Hosting a Spooky Customer Advisory Board Retreat
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Craig Rosenberg: So Kacie, [00:05:50] tell us a story.

Kacie Jenkins: I have a couple. Uh, [00:05:55] the, the most, um, uh, halloweeny [00:06:00] interesting, um, is that we, [00:06:05] uh, Fastly had a, um, a [00:06:10] very luxurious customer advisory board trip that we would do, um, [00:06:15] annually. And my team kind of handcrafted this [00:06:20] every year with boutique hotels and we partnered with our hospitality friends and, [00:06:25] um, and one year we decided to do it in Aspen.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and [00:06:30] I was lucky to work for A CEO who was. Just as in hinges as [00:06:35] I am. And, um, he was a downhill skier, kind of a, a, um, [00:06:40] adrenaline junkie. So he, he loved to race, he loved to ski anything fast, and he, [00:06:45] um. He, he, he and I decided we wanted to take all of our [00:06:50] customer adv, advisory board members, skiing, um, which somehow we convinced our legal team to let us [00:06:55] do, and we booked out this whole hotel in Aspen and flew [00:07:00] everyone in and, um, and realized that quite a few of these people didn't know how to [00:07:05] ski.

Kacie Jenkins: So we were actually teaching them to ski. Um. One. [00:07:10] And uh, you know, this was like the CTOs, the heads of engineering at like JP Morgan Chase, [00:07:15] like New York Times Target. Um, and [00:07:20] uh, and then two, we realized the hotel has neglected to tell us it's [00:07:25] haunted. And there's pictures of this like small child [00:07:30] that haunts it all over the hotel.

Craig Rosenberg: what?

Kacie Jenkins: And so [00:07:35] people are coming in like walking down the hall to their room going. What's this, what, what is this [00:07:40] about? And the staff's just like, oh yeah, it's haunted. If you're on this floor in the old [00:07:45] wing, he might visit you. And so we kind of had to [00:07:50] be like, okay, we're gonna, we have to make this a, a stick.

Kacie Jenkins: It's like part of the thing, like we knew it was [00:07:55] haunted. Um, so we played it. Uh, and no one, no one said that they [00:08:00] got visited, but apparently this ghost would like take things, you know, like if things went [00:08:05] missing out of your room, it was the ghost. Um, so that's the first part of the [00:08:10] story is that we had a haunted cab, which is I think on brand for me.

Kacie Jenkins: But [00:08:15] the, the second is, um, that. Our CEO [00:08:20] was like an expert downhill skier, like really, really good, you know, like double black. And [00:08:25] he got impatient with teaching the people who didn't know how to ski. And he was like, you're good, [00:08:30] you got this. And took all the advanced people and I end, I am not a great [00:08:35] skier and I ended up like trying to backwards ski, teach these people to ski down [00:08:40] this hill, which was terrifying.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and you know, they're [00:08:45] like pizza eyeing with their skis down. Um, and, [00:08:50] and we made it. And, uh, but I think at least three of those [00:08:55] people ended up working for us, like coming over to work with Fastly because it was such [00:09:00] like deep bonding Yeah. Yeah. that's

Kacie Jenkins: to

Kacie Jenkins: get down the mountain together. [00:09:05] Uh, and uh, so I recommend.

Kacie Jenkins: You know, slightly [00:09:10] harrowing types of experiences. They bond you together in a more human way than [00:09:15] just like, let's go have some cocktails.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. You know, I got a comment on that. Well, [00:09:20] first of all, the, the haunted hotel was a twist. I was not

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Didn't see that [00:09:25] coming.

Craig Rosenberg: that.

Kacie Jenkins: pictures were so weird too. It was

Kacie Jenkins: [00:09:30] apparently this child drowned. So when some of

Kacie Jenkins: these pictures, it's like this ghostly, wet [00:09:35] child like dripping.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh God. Oh it's very, it's [00:09:40] not funny, but I, yeah, I don't know how real any of this is either, but it's a legend,

Craig Rosenberg: [00:09:45] But, but it is interesting because what you said at the end brings it [00:09:50] all back, which is like, this is much better than just having your cab show up. [00:09:55] Feed them a nice dinner in San Francisco and get 'em drinks. Yeah. Yeah. Unforgettable. [00:10:00] And your personal experience of training these folks, that was really [00:10:05] human.

Craig Rosenberg: It is. The whole thing for you is very on brand 'cause you're not playing [00:10:10] standard and so like, uh, so that was a great story. The [00:10:15] haunted, twisting, I'm still. I'm not sure I could stay. I stayed at the Driscoll and that's haunted, [00:10:20] right. And uh, but they didn't tell me till after. So I was great. And then I was going back out there, I was [00:10:25] ringing my kids.

Craig Rosenberg: I said, I, I made the mistake. I told them, well, we could stay at the really classic hotel. It's the [00:10:30] Driscoll, it is haunted. And of course they stayed. No. So I had to stay at the loft or whatever, [00:10:35] but, um, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Very typical. But I got my Marriott points. [00:10:40] So the, so that was a great, so I love that.

Craig Rosenberg: And there's a really. Good lesson there, which [00:10:45] is 'cause everyone's trying to do these, um, events and whatnot, [00:10:50] but like doing something really special, memorable that forces you to [00:10:55] interact with, you know, in this case of this, your customers and everyone interacting [00:11:00] together. Uh, that I think that's really cool.

Craig Rosenberg: I do hope nobody was [00:11:05] haunted by this little kid, but you know, on the other hand, that could have been a funny story too. So. Alright, [00:11:10] good. That's my

Craig Rosenberg: reaction. Oh wait, Matt's got a reaction. fact.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:11:15] Oh

Kacie Jenkins: Tell

Matt Amundson: don't believe in ghosts.

Kacie Jenkins: you No,

Matt Amundson: I don't [00:11:20] believe.

Kacie Jenkins: Well, you've just never been properly haunted.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Let's take a poll. Hold on a [00:11:25] Kacie, do you believe in ghosts?

Kacie Jenkins: I do.

Matt Amundson: [00:11:30] Craig.

Craig Rosenberg: Here's my deal. My feeling on ghosts is [00:11:35] that I want to convince myself that ghosts don't exist. So I'm [00:11:40] not scared, but I do. But I, so I am afraid of ghosts. [00:11:45] That doesn't mean, so I'm not sure that was the same answer, but like [00:11:50] if I was in that hotel, my mind would go and I would [00:11:55] feel like. Everything I heard was the ghost, so I'm not sure.

Craig Rosenberg: I think I do [00:12:00] then believe in

Craig Rosenberg: ghosts. 'cause I, yeah. You're just not afraid of it. No, I am, but I [00:12:05] convinced myself there's no such thing as ghost. It's just, you know, it's the same thing you tell your kids. It's like, oh no, you know, [00:12:10] my fricking the, the 11-year-old I was just talking about. So this dad comes up [00:12:15] to me at basketball practice.

Craig Rosenberg: He's like, Hey, listen, um, your son told my [00:12:20] son that the best movie of all time is black phone. Okay? Now I [00:12:25] was like, wait. And so I, so my son watched it. I watched him. It was really [00:12:30] scary. So I go to my son. I said, dude, have you seen black phone? He's like, no. [00:12:35] So he told the kid and the kid and his dad. I'm like, thank God.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:12:40] 'cause it seems, it looks scary.

Kacie Jenkins: Oh, that's so

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. Anyway. All right, [00:12:45] back to you Kacie.

Craig Rosenberg: You have another story.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:12:50] Um, I mean, I have many stories. Uh,

Food Poisoning
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Kacie Jenkins: the other story that I [00:12:55] was gonna tell is the time that, uh, this is just a, [00:13:00] you know, things are always gonna go in a direction that you don't anticipate [00:13:05] sometimes story, um, at our, uh. [00:13:10] Annual conference, um, that my team put on regionally. This, this one was the [00:13:15] San Francisco one, which was like the flagship, um, conference.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:13:20] We, um, we would take our speakers out, you know, for the night [00:13:25] before, for like a fancy speaker dinner and have everyone get to know each other. And we went to [00:13:30] this pretty well known, like very fancy restaurant in San Francisco. Took everyone [00:13:35] there, had this big long table. Um, woke up the next morning [00:13:40] and everyone has food poisoning.

Kacie Jenkins: Like all of my speakers, all of my most [00:13:45] important customers, my executives, um, so sick. I had to [00:13:50] delay the start of the event. We had to go get everyone. Um. Like [00:13:55] powerful anti-nausea drugs and like little kits. Um, [00:14:00] and so we, we, the, the event team had to pivot into like, [00:14:05] care, um, and somehow we hydrated and, and [00:14:10] propped everyone up and, and didn't have to cancel it.

Kacie Jenkins: But I basically [00:14:15] poisoned my customers and my executive team, um, which [00:14:20] was pretty amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh my God.

Matt Amundson: Jesus That's unbelievable.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:14:25] That that. in food poisoning, though

Matt Amundson: I do believe in it.

Craig Rosenberg: Yes, [00:14:30] I, I do Good poisoning is worse than

Matt Amundson: Way worse, far worse, far worse. Craig, [00:14:35] quick question for you. Do you like the coffee hold like this? Or is this [00:14:40] better for a podcast?

Craig Rosenberg: Um, [00:14:45] I feel like this looks more official, but.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:14:50] The handle. The handle is very important for me on cups, like some [00:14:55] of the, this one I don't like the grip

Matt Amundson: Hmm. Fair enough.

Matt Amundson: Craig, your [00:15:00] thoughts?

Craig Rosenberg: I am, you know, I, [00:15:05] I only do paper. Even they have to get me paper cups in the office. I, for [00:15:10] whatever reason, mugs, I can't drink coffee outta mugs.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:15:15] is it the thickness of the rim?

Craig Rosenberg: That was very [00:15:20] thoughtful of you. I'm not sure I could put a finger on it, actually. Yeah. Uh, [00:15:25] so

Kacie Jenkins: This mug Craig is from Ruby. Ruby sent [00:15:30] me this

Craig Rosenberg: she didn't send me or Matt a, you know what,

Kacie Jenkins: Yes. Our friend Ruby [00:15:35] at LinkedIn knew, knows that I love tea and sent me a special tea [00:15:40] mug.

Craig Rosenberg: she's so thoughtful. That, but then what, what about me? I mean, I, well, I guess I [00:15:45] don't like She would have to send you a

Matt Amundson: paper cup. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: so my [00:15:50] comment would be, I think, uh, the, this, this angle where you [00:15:55] drink, like, that's like very Johnny Carson and so I'm in favor of that.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. There's many [00:16:00] people that are listening to this shit. I have no idea who Johnny Carson is. Yeah. Yeah. So, [00:16:05] uh, thank you. Um, that is an incredible, so was the show [00:16:10] successful?

Kacie Jenkins: It was, it was successful. We had to sub a couple of people, like swap [00:16:15] a couple people in. A couple people were, were a bed all day. Um, [00:16:20] but it was a success. Those drove millions of dollars for us 'cause they were deal [00:16:25] accelerators, you know, prospect and customer matchmaking.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:16:30] yeah. No, I bet. Um, and then just really quick, so the restaurant, what did they [00:16:35] say?

Kacie Jenkins: They denied. Um, which was really [00:16:40] interesting because I had data from a very [00:16:45] specific period of time with a group of people who all only did that. [00:16:50] Um, and so we actually, we ended up refusing to, to [00:16:55] pay, um, and they did not like that, so then we could never host events there again, [00:17:00] unfortunately. But. Um, it seemed pretty obvious that that was the [00:17:05] only

Craig Rosenberg: yeah.

Kacie Jenkins: that could have caused it.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. But you [00:17:10] know, you're, you're very classy to not name the name of the restaurant.

Kacie Jenkins: I, [00:17:15] yeah, I mean, I'm sure they were horrified.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Um, by [00:17:20] the way, I was just, you know, yeah. We have a big event next week [00:17:25] and I just keep warning the team. This is not to be negative guys. I'm just warning you, a shoe will [00:17:30] drop

Matt Amundson: yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: five days. It, it, it's like. It [00:17:35] is like clockwork, but Kacie's stories involve haunted houses [00:17:40] and mass food poisoning issues.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, those are, those are not shoes that I want [00:17:45] to drop right now.

Kacie Jenkins: No, I would not wish those upon you.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, so actually [00:17:50] I, so I appreciate those stories, Kacie. Those, those were perfect for the show. But you know what, I [00:17:55] keep complimenting you. I, I gotta find something where I. Give you negative feedback. [00:18:00] Well, let's, yeah. Yeah. What a lousy food poisoning story. I've heard [00:18:05] better.

Craig Rosenberg: Let me give Matt, let me give Matt some

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Please do. Please. Yeah. I'm [00:18:10] dressed like a Star Trek agent right now, so

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, I, well, I was, thank you for [00:18:15] leading me with that. I wasn't sure what to do about that. Yeah. But, um, [00:18:20] you, do you dress cozy for the show. It's interesting. You always do. What? It's, a sort [00:18:25] of,

Craig Rosenberg: even in this. Even in the summer though, you'll, you'll dress in like a [00:18:30] coat, like I could see, you might want to do a fireplace background.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. I [00:18:35] do love a cozy summer sweater.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, a boy. I like [00:18:40] it. All right. I flipped that around. I was trying to make it negative, but I ended up

Matt Amundson: A positive.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:18:45] I'm doing my best. I'm doing my best guys. All right. So Kacie, let's teach people something. And [00:18:50] you have, uh, I've already heard a lot of your stuff. You have incredible ideas. [00:18:55] So let's get, uh, your, you know, it's a tough world.

Craig Rosenberg: It's [00:19:00] different, but there's a lot of really great stuff you could do. So like, what, you know,

How Founders can Seize the Story of Their Category and Own The Narrative
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Craig Rosenberg: what are one to three [00:19:05] things that you would, uh, that you've seen, work out there, you've done, and, uh, [00:19:10] let's, let's teach the audience.

Kacie Jenkins: Okay. Um, so I [00:19:15] think this is, uh, this is a hard time for [00:19:20] a lot of Go-To-Market folks. Um, but I think. [00:19:25] Uh, it's, it's really exciting because, um, [00:19:30] in this sea of, of, um, what I'm calling ai go gold [00:19:35] panning, it's like, you know, all these little companies popping up and they're like trying to seize the [00:19:40] moment. Um, but all of them are crowding every category.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:19:45] And so there's like 10 of everything now. Um. It makes marketing so much [00:19:50] more fun because the, the key to winning is real, [00:19:55] true, authentic differentiation. And that comes back to humanness, [00:20:00] uh, and authenticity. And those are the parts of marketing I love best. [00:20:05] So, um, things that I'm seeing working, this should not come as a surprise, but [00:20:10] you know, there are a lot of companies who are sort of wearing the whole 9, 9, 6 hustle grind [00:20:15] as a brand identity that's.

Kacie Jenkins: Super boring. Um, [00:20:20] and, and it doesn't actually tell anyone anything about you other than that you, [00:20:25] uh, you know, are prioritizing speed over everything else. Um, and [00:20:30] I think founder, founder brand to pipeline, like legitimate, [00:20:35] authentic. Uh, you know, founders strong narrative, um, willing to be [00:20:40] bold and take risks, willing to be vulnerable, um, willing to devote [00:20:45] time to, uh, building out a story that no one else could [00:20:50] own, because it's uniquely yours and tied to your expertise and experience and point of view and [00:20:55] personality.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, that's where I'm seeing, uh, some of these new [00:21:00] startups start to win. Um, because I think, you know, as you're coming into a crowded [00:21:05] category, you have to seize the story and own the [00:21:10] narrative, uh, in order for anyone to remember you. And the best way to do [00:21:15] that is with the person with the highest conviction on your team, which is your founder.

Kacie Jenkins: Um. [00:21:20] And, you know, I, I think what I'm seeing is the, [00:21:25] the founders who consider this kind of their number one part [00:21:30] of their job besides running the business, um, are the ones that are [00:21:35] starting to build, uh, really powerful networks. Um, Archer Fastly [00:21:40] was incredible at this. He spent a lot of time. Um, building up an, [00:21:45] uh, digital following, attending events, speaking around the world, speaking [00:21:50] to press and analysts, uh, writing long form content.

Kacie Jenkins: He was, uh, [00:21:55] he had a, um, he swore all the time. Um, so we were selling to enterprise, [00:22:00] you know, like very formal situations and he would just come in and just drop f-bombs all over the place. But [00:22:05] he was so compelling as, and charismatic. Smart [00:22:10] that everyone would stop to listen to him and no one forgot him.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and, [00:22:15] and so, you know, I think this, this founder branded pipeline figuring out, you know, what, [00:22:20] what am I really good at? What's unique to unique about me and what is my audience that I'm. [00:22:25] Trying to reach care about and where's the intersection of these things? That beautiful [00:22:30] circle in the middle. Um, and how do I get consistent with the way that I'm showing up [00:22:35] and, uh, be unforgettable and then turn that into relationships.[00:22:40]

Kacie Jenkins: Um, so like connecting regularly with the, the audience you're trying to reach [00:22:45] and. And the folks you're gonna be multi-threading with inside of your deals. Um, so that [00:22:50] you are the kind of, um, unlocking function inside of your organization and [00:22:55] nothing's gonna be blocked or slowed down 'cause you can always text, have someone on text [00:23:00] basis that you can unblock with.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and I like, I don't think [00:23:05] founders think through this and think they often think about this as like, oh, I just need to post some [00:23:10] shit. I just need to throw some shit on the internet, um, [00:23:15] regularly. And the posting is just the beginning of a process. It's [00:23:20] like, it's a, it's a flywheel where you're building relationships, you're building momentum, [00:23:25] you're building a network, um, that will warm up all of the marketing activities and [00:23:30] all of the sales activities that your team eventually, um, rolls out.

Kacie Jenkins: It's like [00:23:35] a, a force multiplier. Um, and so I don't know why [00:23:40] everyone isn't doing this and hiring people to help them. You get smarter at it, [00:23:45] but it's, I think it's one of the, the, the, the best places [00:23:50] to start when you're early stage.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay. There was [00:23:55] a lot there. Can I, I'll try to un unpack Matt. Uh, is it all right if I [00:24:00] just

Matt Amundson: Yeah, of course.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, of course. Oh, thanks Matt. Appreciate that. All right. [00:24:05] First one is AI gold panning Incredible. Did you, is that your [00:24:10] word phrase?

Kacie Jenkins: it? It is.

Craig Rosenberg: It's God. That was great. That was great. That was

Craig Rosenberg: great. Amazing. [00:24:15]

Craig Rosenberg: There?

Matt Amundson: Wanna make sure I

Craig Rosenberg: No, make sure,

Kacie Jenkins: it's two separate words.

Kacie Jenkins: I don't know. [00:24:20] We invented it so we can,

Matt Amundson: We you did. I just wanna make sure when [00:24:25] just wanna make sure. accurate.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, I'm going with we, no, no, I'm not [00:24:30] going with we. Okay. I, that's incredible. I just want, uh, audience take note. [00:24:35] That was incredible work. All right, so I have a, a couple things. So one, I do want to go back [00:24:40] 'cause, uh. You, we don't have to do this yet, like, but let's go back 'cause you killed [00:24:45] it with this strategy.

Craig Rosenberg: As recently as months ago. [00:24:50] So I want to talk to you about, 'cause you, you have incredible insights on how you made this happen. [00:24:55] Um, and I didn't know Fastly was like your test bed and that you had the founder that wanted to go [00:25:00] do this. I do want to bring up something you also brought up that I think is really interesting.

Craig Rosenberg: So, Al [00:25:05] Bro, uh, Scott Albro, uh, uh, you know, he's also, he's the guy I always [00:25:10] quoted my, um, PREAs when we go on the road show. He had this post that I thought [00:25:15] was really interesting. That he said another hidden [00:25:20] thing about growing a company is that you need your, there's cool, there is a [00:25:25] set of cool kids that run categories.

Craig Rosenberg: He's like, it's, [00:25:30] there's founders in there, there's influencers in there, there's, uh, [00:25:35] you know, uh, I forget what else. You know, like there's this group and you need your founder to [00:25:40] get in that group. Right. And like, uh, I was like, that was so, because [00:25:45] you sort of said that late was like, by the way, you know, you went through [00:25:50] this progression and then you're like, and then you build your story out there.

Craig Rosenberg: You actually [00:25:55] can't get in that cool kids club unless, well, a, you. You know, you, you [00:26:00] have like human skills, but that you have a story. Oh, not that me and Matt are [00:26:05] cool, but like Matt hadn't really met you, but he knew that he really wanted you on the show [00:26:10] because you've built Right. You, you, you were like, we're like, oh my God, she's one of us.

Craig Rosenberg: We [00:26:15] gotta get her on,

Kacie Jenkins: I think you're both very cool,

Craig Rosenberg: oh

Kacie Jenkins: too cool for me.

Kacie Jenkins: Probably

Craig Rosenberg: [00:26:20] No,

Craig Rosenberg: definitely. Yeah. No, that, that's not true. But thank you. [00:26:25] Um,

Kacie Jenkins: I.

Craig Rosenberg: but what do you, what do you think of that, by the way? That is an, that [00:26:30] was a really good

Kacie Jenkins: I loved that post. I'm so glad you brought it up. Um, [00:26:35] I could not agree with him more. I think, um, [00:26:40] this is sort of, you know, I guess you could circle this in the, the, the dark [00:26:45] social, you know, like dark influence, um, piece of marketing. Um, [00:26:50] but people don't buy from people they don't [00:26:55] trust, like. Respect, admire, um, [00:27:00] and especially in, in enterprise selling, when you're trying to, to go up [00:27:05] market and crack.

Kacie Jenkins: People who don't have time are inundated, don't [00:27:10] care. Um, you know, if you're selling to a technical buyer, it's even harder. They, they really [00:27:15] don't. Um. They, they block all your ads, um, and [00:27:20] say they don't want marketing even though they actually enjoy creative, weird, quirky [00:27:25] marketing. Um, but I, you know, like, I think this is one of the, um. [00:27:30] It's, it's like an unspoken truth that he said out loud, which is there are [00:27:35] rooms where decisions get made. There are rooms where, you know, word of mouth recommendations [00:27:40] happen. Um, and then everyone in that room goes and takes that out and [00:27:45] disseminates it. And if you're not getting yourself in those rooms as a [00:27:50] founder, you're putting your company at a huge disadvantage and your competitors probably will.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:27:55] Um, so it's, it, it is, you know, the way he framed that is [00:28:00] exactly right. And I think to do that you have to have a strong point of view. You have to, [00:28:05] um. Make people feel like you belong with [00:28:10] them or what you are doing makes them belong with you. It's, you know, it's a, it's the art [00:28:15] of, of like building a movement around yourself that people can relate [00:28:20] to.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and if they think that person stands for X [00:28:25] and so do I, or if, you know, if I hang out with that person, then I will be [00:28:30] this type of leader. You know, it's, there's this whole kind of like. [00:28:35] Lore that that founders need to build around [00:28:40] what they stand for and what type of person you'll be if you're in the circle with [00:28:45] them,

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, because you said is that you have [00:28:50] to turn this, your, the narrative associated with you [00:28:55] into relationships. That was really cool. And that's, [00:29:00] these things all fall in line. You know, it's interesting too, 'cause I was thinking about how, when you said that, [00:29:05] so. I had a guy who, like at Topo, we tried [00:29:10] to build out the thought leadership footprint to folks and it was like, [00:29:15] you know, you use, you know, you've, you've gotta go and you know, we will allow, you know, we want [00:29:20] you to go.

Craig Rosenberg: We had this rule at Topo, which was, you have to meet five people a week. Right. And like, [00:29:25] I've, now it's my policy, but we try to do that. Um, you [00:29:30] know, and there was this one guy who Matt knows who, I will not name his name out of respect, but like, you know, he just [00:29:35] couldn't get. People to meet with. And I was like, and I, I [00:29:40] said, dude, this is the problem.

Craig Rosenberg: And I'm just gonna be honest with you, uh, [00:29:45] the, the initial remit. Nobody just meets with someone. [00:29:50] We don't have time. There's nothing in it for them. Like you don't have something [00:29:55] interesting you like. And so now by the way, he's changed, like he's really active on social [00:30:00] and how he's coming back to me going, Hey dude, I just met this so and so.

Craig Rosenberg: He's actually brought [00:30:05] deals to the thing. But it took him like having that. [00:30:10] His narrative and point of view and unique opinions out into the market for him to [00:30:15] change his ability to create relationships. So I thought of that as you were saying that. I love [00:30:20] that part. That's a really

Kacie Jenkins: good example. I think, you know, humans [00:30:25] respond organically to conviction. Um, so, you [00:30:30] know, I mean, we see it all over and people, people who are in, um, you [00:30:35] know, positions of power, um, there are very few people in positions of power who aren't. [00:30:40] Um. Like high conviction, strong point of view, [00:30:45] strong personality and identity, strong narrative and story.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, I, I think, [00:30:50] you know, you can have a lot of conviction about your company, but if you don't have anything interesting to [00:30:55] say, say, and you don't have a point of view, that could be, you know, potentially debated. It's [00:31:00] too safe, it's too passive. Um, people aren't gonna know. Where you [00:31:05] stand or you know what they're representing, if they stand with you.

Kacie Jenkins: And so that's boring [00:31:10] and and not memorable. And no one cares.

Craig Rosenberg: Yep. [00:31:15] Matt, your thoughts? I jumped right in. I want I, yeah, I'm gonna hold

Matt Amundson: Yeah, I mean, [00:31:20] I think I, I, I, I think people who try to play things both ways, who waffle, whether it's in like [00:31:25] business, whether it's on a LinkedIn conversation, never goes anywhere, right? Like the, the [00:31:30] things that get the most attention are p are strong opinions, right? Good or bad. They get the [00:31:35] most attention.

Matt Amundson: And that can be both positive and negative, right? Like, so here [00:31:40] I am waffling on it. I just like people to, to Kacie's point, who come out and take a stand, right? [00:31:45] Like, I think if you rewind the clock to my time at Marketo, like we were very [00:31:50] convicted in what we were doing. We built a movement around what we were doing and we said, this is the way it has to [00:31:55] be done.

Matt Amundson: It wasn't like, well, you could do it this way and that might, you know, improve some of your [00:32:00] metrics we're, we were like, this is how you do marketing in the modern era. These are the types of [00:32:05] results that you're gonna get. And that worked really well. And we, we were able [00:32:10] to, to Kacie's point, like build a movement.

Matt Amundson: We were able to establish [00:32:15] this is who we are, and there were a bunch of people that wanted to be a part of that club and it worked. I [00:32:20] think the same has been true in, uh, in other categories as well. You see, [00:32:25] you know, for me personally, I see it a lot in GTM categories. I thought. SalesLoft led, like a [00:32:30] very strong revolution there.

Matt Amundson: Out outreach being the, the sort of counterpart to that. Like there [00:32:35] were, there were people that were building a real movement. I have not really seen [00:32:40] it all that much lately, especially on the GTM side, uh, because there's so [00:32:45] many different paths that I think you can take at this point. But like I'm telling you, the [00:32:50] second somebody is like, this is how you do AI and GTM. And they like get super [00:32:55] convicted. This is how you build it. This is what you do. This is the process. There is such a huge [00:33:00] opportunity for someone to step in and grab that and run with it, that they will get [00:33:05] everybody behind them. The problem is that, you know, everything's a little too fragmented right now, but [00:33:10] if you could come in and lead that revolution, like you could be every bit as big as some of these [00:33:15] hyperscalers right now.

Kacie Jenkins: Yeah, I think there's, um, there are a lot of [00:33:20] pieces to building a movement. One of them is sort of your founder [00:33:25] brand and your positioning. And you know, this, the story of the future that you're seeding. [00:33:30] A little bit early so everyone else can feel like they're part of seeing something [00:33:35] before everyone else.

Kacie Jenkins: You know, the, the, the layman sees it. Um, [00:33:40] and it's this sort of like FOMO or like, I'm part of something special. I'm part of a special group. [00:33:45] Uh, and, and then there's an element of like. [00:33:50] Defining the market. So I think that's missing right now. It's like it's so [00:33:55] fragmented. No one really knows like, do I need this tool and this tool?

Kacie Jenkins: Do these replace each other? What do I [00:34:00] need? You know, like, does this do the same thing as that? No one's coming out and saying, here is what you [00:34:05] need. This is the best in class stack for A-I-G-T-M. [00:34:10] Right? Yeah. Like if you come out and you define that and you say, this is all you need. Right here. And then [00:34:15] you bring those people in to partner with you and you say, this is the, you [00:34:20] know, the superhero team that you need to take yourself into the future.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:34:25] That's then, then you have the beginnings of a movement.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, agreed.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:34:30] That's awesome. Um, okay, so actually [00:34:35] I, so I have two things written down and I'm not sure which one to go with first. I'm going to let Matt

Craig Rosenberg: [00:34:40] vote. you decide.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay. So number one is do we [00:34:45] dive in? Do, do we dive into Kacie's, [00:34:50] uh, like how you execute on the founder brand? [00:34:55] Or do we do a little more conversation? 'cause one thing she said to me the other day, [00:35:00] which like I has never left my brain, is she and she, she threw it [00:35:05] in by the way, in her early soliloquy, was [00:35:10] bold brand, right?

Craig Rosenberg: [00:35:15] Bold positioning, bold brand, and that you cannot [00:35:20] succeed in this crowded world without. A bold approach to [00:35:25] those sort of traditional marketing things. So what do you wanna do, [00:35:30] Matt? Let's talk Let's talk bold

Craig Rosenberg: brand

Matt Amundson: I think.

Craig Rosenberg: I knew you were [00:35:35] gonna choose that. That was awesome. Oh you knew that? Yeah. I mean, [00:35:40] the part of the reason is, is like we haven't had a lot of like

Craig Rosenberg: we haven't had a lot of

Matt Amundson: marketers on, so [00:35:45]

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Matt Amundson: Let's, let's, let's dive right in.

How to Build Bold Brands for B2B SaaS
---

Craig Rosenberg: [00:35:50] So Kacie. Bold. That is a big word. Tell us [00:35:55] why, and then tell us like what, like how, how we should think about it. I, I love that. I [00:36:00] mean, honestly has not left my brain.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, I'm, I love that [00:36:05] that's not left your, left your brain. Uh, me.

Craig Rosenberg: Sorry, that was earlier. [00:36:10] Yeah.

Matt Amundson: Least she didn't food

Craig Rosenberg: Dad joke. Dad joke. All right. My bad. All right, go ahead Kacie.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:36:15] I, um, I've been having a lot of conversations. I've probably had at [00:36:20] least a hundred founder conversations in the last few months, so I've been seeing kind of all these different [00:36:25] lenses of, um. You know, here's who we are. Uh, here's the beginnings of a [00:36:30] brand, or here's the, you know, highly developed brand that, that we've built over the [00:36:35] years.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, I've been talking to big and small companies and, uh, [00:36:40] I think. I've worked [00:36:45] across B2B and B2C. So I think I have a unique slightly, you know, [00:36:50] weird point of view on what bold means. Um, I think in [00:36:55] B2B Tech often, um, it's construed as like [00:37:00] aggressive or like, you know, coming for your competitors or. [00:37:05] Um, punching down or punching up.

Kacie Jenkins: Uh, and you see that a lot in, [00:37:10] in some of the founders that have gone viral, uh, in the last year or so. Um, [00:37:15] there have been some public battles and also staged, you know, fake, fake battles, [00:37:20] almost like wrestling. Um, but, uh, [00:37:25] I kind of think there's, uh, another element to it that we can learn from, [00:37:30] from B2C, which is like, how do you become, uh. [00:37:35] How do you become unforgettable in a way that, like, like you said, like you haven't [00:37:40] stopped thinking about that. How do you become the brand that people can't stop thinking about because they're [00:37:45] so weird or so unique or so, um, [00:37:50] you know, tied into some sort of human mission, [00:37:55] uh, and. When I was at Fastly, we really leaned [00:38:00] into the weirdness of engineers.

Kacie Jenkins: Like, engineers are [00:38:05] fascinating, nerdy, weird people with lots of like inside jokes. Um, [00:38:10] they love Easter eggs. Uh, and, and our founder was extremely [00:38:15] bold as a human. He had bright red hair, big red beard, you know, like swirl all the [00:38:20] time. Super, super, like. Uh, sure. Of himself and confident [00:38:25] and, and convicted.

Kacie Jenkins: And so, you know, when we were designing the brand, it's [00:38:30] bright red. Um, it's quirky and funny. Like we didn't take [00:38:35] ourselves too seriously. We were doing serious stuff, delivering, you know, the basically the [00:38:40] entire internet. Um, but there are people, you know, that we were [00:38:45] selling to who ran the internet and ran their company's network teams.

Kacie Jenkins: And so [00:38:50] if we had just gone for like. What our competitor was doing, which was very [00:38:55] corporate, very bland, uh, very safe, very co compliancy. Um, we [00:39:00] would've lost. And so we had to be the incumbent that was coming in and going like, we're gonna build [00:39:05] a better internet. We're gonna rally everyone together with us.

Kacie Jenkins: We're, we are [00:39:10] gonna choose who we work with, and we are not gonna support violence on our network or hate [00:39:15] our competitors. Took anyone. Um, that would pay them money. We took a [00:39:20] stand. Um, so that was kind of the beginning of like, how do, what is our definition of [00:39:25] bold? Our definition of bold is we're gonna define what a better internet looks like and who [00:39:30] the people are building it, which open source projects, which engineers, which [00:39:35] companies.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and you know, we're gonna s stand against things that we think. [00:39:40] Are bad for the future of the internet and the future of humanity. And then we're gonna [00:39:45] throw in, um, you know, like things that make us [00:39:50] seem more human. Um, so we're gonna laugh at ourselves. I did a whole video [00:39:55] about Fastly and the speed of the internet where we actually brought in pigeons and like filmed [00:40:00] ourselves like. Like, you know, launching Messenger pigeons to show, you know, [00:40:05] like the difference between us and a competitor. It was ridiculous. The pigeons got stuck in our [00:40:10] office, um, and they were just in there like pooping on people for a long time. Um, but [00:40:15] I had a team that was like, let's do it. You know, like, let's take people downhill skiing.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:40:20] Let's take people racing. At the BMW track with our CEO, who is [00:40:25] like, you know, out of control. Speed, speed racer. Let's like do the [00:40:30] pigeons, let's do, you know, ridiculous shit that liquid death would only do. You don's [00:40:35] give away weird stuff. Um. It worked, uh, [00:40:40] because people were like, oh, this is memorable. I wanna be a part of [00:40:45] this.

Kacie Jenkins: Uh, you know, we like that you stand for something. You, you walk the talk. [00:40:50] Um, we built a whole open source program where we gave back millions and multimillions [00:40:55] of dollars to open source and nonprofits powering the internet. Um. [00:41:00] And so when people looked at us, they were like, we know who you are. You know, it wasn't just [00:41:05] like, oh, this is the back end of the internet.

Kacie Jenkins: It was the, the, the humanity, [00:41:10] behind the internet.

Craig Rosenberg: Dude,

Matt Amundson: Amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:41:15] that is so good. Oh man.

Craig Rosenberg: I

Craig Rosenberg: [00:41:20] love,

Matt Amundson: think the one thing.

Craig Rosenberg: that was a great story.

Matt Amundson: think the one thing that helps, uh, [00:41:25] marketers create a, a, you know, sort of bold marketing and a bold brand is have, you know, [00:41:30] bold values as an organization. I think one of the things that's tricky is when, you know, if you [00:41:35] enter a company and you're kind of like, Hey, I wanna do something crazy here, but it doesn't align with [00:41:40] the values of the organization, that it always feels a little inauthentic and [00:41:45] That's

Kacie Jenkins: a really good.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, so like when, you know, I, [00:41:50] sorry to bring up Marketo again, but like Marketo had like this, you know, one of our company values was that, [00:41:55] um, you know, we, we, and I, I always bring this up at every company, is that we had a, [00:42:00] a, a, a violent pace of innovation. So [00:42:05] we just always wanted to be innovating. And part of that became, you know, the [00:42:10] brand and it became part of why, uh, we did certain things.

Matt Amundson: 'cause we wanted to do [00:42:15] innovative things, not just in terms of the products that we created, but in terms of the content that we created, in terms of the [00:42:20] events that we did, right? Like, and it's, it's, it's values like that, that sort of [00:42:25] permeate through an organization. And I think your example of Fastly [00:42:30] is really pertinent because.

Matt Amundson: In my experience, and I [00:42:35] think most of, most of our listeners, and I'm sure that both of you would agree with me, is like the culture of a company is the culture [00:42:40] that the of the CEO. Right. So it makes sense if you've got a bright red [00:42:45] hair, a bright big beard, CEO, to have a red brand. And if [00:42:50] he's a adrenaline junkie, to be called fastly and to do things that push the limits, right?

Matt Amundson: [00:42:55] Like that, all that all makes sense. And I think certain in, in certain cases, especially [00:43:00] in early stage businesses, CEOs are not always aware that like they. [00:43:05] Are the catalyst for the brand. And it's like you have to cultivate that from them. And [00:43:10] then that has to be a part of the company culture. It has to be the company values, and then it [00:43:15] extends out into the marketing, and you gotta do the work to cultivate that.

Matt Amundson: If you're [00:43:20] not willing to do the work, then a lot of marketing feels a little scattershot, feels a little [00:43:25] inauthentic. It's like, Ooh, let's try this. Let's try that. If you have like a base to [00:43:30] draw off of. You know, the sort of the, the outline for what the company should be and what it [00:43:35] should mean and why people should buy our product, and

Matt Amundson: then you bring that into the culture [00:43:40] of the company.

Matt Amundson: The marketing will reflect that with the right marketing leader on [00:43:45] board.

Kacie Jenkins: Yes. You cannot do this without the founder. Um, [00:43:50] I, I think a lot of people try and it, it falls flat and it's inauthentic, and I think a [00:43:55] lot of founders don't, don't take this as seriously as they should. [00:44:00] Uh, and I, and also, um, I think [00:44:05] o oftentimes, you know, like when you're early stage, people overthink this, like, it's like [00:44:10] sitting in a room with your founder and going, what do you stand for?[00:44:15]

Kacie Jenkins: What do you hate? You know, like, what do you think is wrong, um, that we're gonna fix in the [00:44:20] future? Um, you know, like in a, in a a, a [00:44:25] persona like identity archetype wheel, are you the rebel? Are you the [00:44:30] educator? Are you the, you know, like which one of these different types of voices are [00:44:35] you? Um, and are we, you know, as a result, because we're gonna mirror that, [00:44:40] um, it doesn't have to be like some long, you know, like.

Kacie Jenkins: Drawn [00:44:45] out templated process. I think in the beginning it's a lot better if it's organic [00:44:50] conversations where your team's coming together going like, what? Who are you? Who are we? What do we [00:44:55] stand for? Where's the, the line where you cross the gray area and we say, that's bad. [00:45:00] That's good. We stand for this.

Kacie Jenkins: We do not stand for that.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:45:05] I love the, the, that, that, you know, how many [00:45:10] CMO bodies are buried? From the belief that they [00:45:15] could go in with a F founder or CEO, who was not going to be bought in with this, [00:45:20] that, you know, I'm gonna go in there, I'm gonna change it. You guys have unlocked a, a [00:45:25] reason for constant churn and frankly, a lot of pain in [00:45:30] the CMO world because if you don't have what you guys just described, [00:45:35] if you don't have someone willing to build.

Craig Rosenberg: That sort of value [00:45:40] set that will allow you to build the brand on top of, uh, you're not going [00:45:45] to be, you're either not gonna be happy or you're not gonna make it.

Kacie Jenkins: It also [00:45:50] trickles all the way through to Matt's point, like it's inauthentic if it's not [00:45:55] represented in the way you prioritize and interact with your customers. Um, this stuff was written, [00:46:00] I, I wrote this stuff into our S one. It said like, we win business because we're good people. [00:46:05] We work, we only work with companies with integrity and who are honest and trustworthy and do not.[00:46:10]

Kacie Jenkins: Promote violence and hate. That was written in, into our S one. Um, and it [00:46:15] was from our customers words. They told us, we buy from you because you're good people. We had [00:46:20] competitors, you know, who would try and undercut and, you know, come in and, and say bad [00:46:25] things about us and they would just send us the emails and laugh, you know, 'cause like we were [00:46:30] friends.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and the, the. The same [00:46:35] aggression and dedication and conviction with, with which, which we like promoted [00:46:40] the future that we were building. And the movement, uh, was applied to [00:46:45] customer success and customer happiness. And we tracked our customers being promoted because all [00:46:50] of them were promoted repeatedly and celebrated that, and that was part of our brand.[00:46:55]

Kacie Jenkins: Um, so it has to go all the way through or people will start to pick up that [00:47:00] you don't really mean it.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, it's amazing. , there's [00:47:05] something, um, that I wanted to bring up. Uh, so, [00:47:10] um, all of these things, you, there was something really early [00:47:15] on in this conversation that you had said, uh, Kacie, that I think is really [00:47:20] important because when we.

Marker
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Craig Rosenberg: One of the issues that I know because, [00:47:25] you know, I'm on this inside where I see the, how the board interacts with the team is [00:47:30] everyone knows that they're gonna care about brand, but there's [00:47:35] result pi, you know, if you're taking from a marketing perspective, there's pipeline and [00:47:40] there's the effectuation of deals.

Craig Rosenberg: And [00:47:45] early, when Kacie was going through her, uh, uh, initial speech, she said, [00:47:50] uh. LinkedIn founder brand to [00:47:55] pipeline and like, uh, I just wanna make sure, because [00:48:00] Kacie saw real results at Send Doso as well, and I, I do wanna [00:48:05] make sure we cover that because I think this is. This is so important. [00:48:10] Everything that we've talked to up to this point, but then we are gonna have like, a certain part of the audience [00:48:15] is like, well, you know, show me the money.

Craig Rosenberg: And in the case of Kacie, like she literally, [00:48:20] uh, had, uh, results in deal size right. [00:48:25] And a

Kacie Jenkins: Deal size, win rate, pipeline, [00:48:30] deal acceleration. Um.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. I

Kacie Jenkins: [00:48:35] this is a really good point. I, I feel like brand's making a comeback, but, but there's still a [00:48:40] lot of hesitation and kind of fear around being a, a [00:48:45] brand to demand or brand focused, CMO, um, because so many of us have been [00:48:50] burned, um, uh. Sendoso, I [00:48:55] started getting really obsessed with how broken attribution is because I felt like it was holding me [00:49:00] back and getting all of my friends fired.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and, you know, all of us ha have, [00:49:05] have dealt with sort of this box that we helped build honestly, [00:49:10] um, where, you know, we're either measuring first or last touch and, um, you know, trying [00:49:15] to fit everything into a, a perfect spreadsheet. And it's siloed, you [00:49:20] know, by. Each tactic or each channel, and it's like dollar in $3 out, [00:49:25] make this perfect, which does not align in any way with the way that humans buy [00:49:30] things, um, or the way that we think about deal cycles.

Kacie Jenkins: [00:49:35] Um, and so I kind of came in like a wrecking ball into Sendoso because I could, we [00:49:40] were, you know, struggling and we needed to rebuild and rethink. And so it was kind of my favorite type of environment. [00:49:45] And um, and we started looking at. Um, you know, mixed [00:49:50] model and multi-touch and correlative and self-reported attribution [00:49:55] and melding it all together.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and Ywe still looked at last touch, [00:50:00] first touch just for sort of like, you know, um, tracking [00:50:05] purposes. Um, but. I basically came in and said, I will [00:50:10] be the owner of all Qualified Pipeline Marketing will be judged on sales [00:50:15] qualified pipeline so that we will shake hands on the quality being the most important thing and the [00:50:20] conversion rate.

Kacie Jenkins: Um. And we are gonna invest [00:50:25] heavily in brand because we were struggling. The perception of of Sendoso was not, [00:50:30] not what we wanted it to be. And we were being undercut by competitors. We were not [00:50:35] the, you know, the, we had lost our spot as the leader in the category. Um, and [00:50:40] so all the signs that you see, you know, like deal sizes going down, sales starting to struggle, [00:50:45] customers churning, um. And, and so we, [00:50:50] we really heavily started by investing in like, okay, how are we gonna track this? First, [00:50:55] we're gonna track this from an uh, uh. An ecosystem [00:51:00] marketing standpoint. So looking at like all of the touch points in, in a deal from an [00:51:05] account progression standpoint, like who are the people we're trying, the accounts we're trying to reach, [00:51:10] um, and you know, what signals are we using to determine that?

Kacie Jenkins: And then how are you gonna track that [00:51:15] these deals are accelerating, that we're multithreading through them, that they're engaging with more [00:51:20] channels, um, and then that they're, you know, faster, bigger, um. [00:51:25] And, and you know, sales, sales is being more successful and deal sizes are are [00:51:30] going up, you know, like over time.

Kacie Jenkins: And, um, so I kind of built that [00:51:35] foundation before we really heavily started going into brand work. And [00:51:40] then we, we built a bench of executives who aligned with the personas we were trying to [00:51:45] reach and we held ourselves accountable for consistently, um, you know, going out and [00:51:50] representing different.

Kacie Jenkins: Angles of our narrative, which was very heavily based in [00:51:55] human connect. This is the era of human connection. Um, we're moving out of the, you know, [00:52:00] like Grok growth hacking, you know, like focus on the end of the marketing funnel. This is [00:52:05] all this, this era is all about human relationships and connection. Um, and [00:52:10] we pushed it really hard and we, because we were direct mail, we could do really cool, [00:52:15] weird stuff.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, you know, like launch a whole campaign around the, the TV show [00:52:20] severance where you're like severed from your work self. And um, you know, like I targeted [00:52:25] all of the marketers that were part of that group that aligned with my ICP on, on LinkedIn. 'cause there was [00:52:30] a fake

Craig Rosenberg: so cool.

Kacie Jenkins: actually advertise to it.

Kacie Jenkins: Um. So I like, we [00:52:35] did some weird stuff that people would be like, eh, what's happening? But I, I actually was tracking [00:52:40] like over time. Um, who is seeing those ads at our target [00:52:45] accounts? Um, you know, as we started to stack paid on top of organic, is our [00:52:50] paid performing more sex successfully? It actually ended up being 10 x more [00:52:55] successful.

Kacie Jenkins: When we invested in Brand first, our outbound efforts went [00:53:00] through the roof. Our team was at 113% of quota like. [00:53:05] Consistently. Um, and that was from like a, the ashes of an outbound team that [00:53:10] had been completely decimated and the company had decided outbound doesn't work 'cause they were doing it cold. [00:53:15] Um, and, you know, we had, uh, you know, 11% higher win rates, [00:53:20] 120% bigger deal sizes, 40% more successful [00:53:25] AEs.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, like, and I was tracking in Salesforce. Pipeline [00:53:30] directly coming from our executives dms. So I was like throwing off six figures of [00:53:35] pipeline meetings booked straight through my dms, just from me posting every [00:53:40] month. Um, and our, our, uh, you know, the rest of our executive [00:53:45] team. And then we had a bench that included an ae, um, our, our head of [00:53:50] BD who was exceptional and actually taught all of us how to do this really well.

Kacie Jenkins: Katie Penner, [00:53:55] um, and Chris, our CEO and, um. And yeah, so I [00:54:00] mean, we had, I, I was going into our LT meetings and our board meetings going like, look, [00:54:05] here's where we started. Here's the force multipliers that are lifting the impact of everything [00:54:10] we're doing, and here's the pipeline directly coming from our executives and their [00:54:15] organic work.

Kacie Jenkins: Here's the ads that we're, you know, like we're slapping paid on top and we're [00:54:20] using those as thought leadership ads as document ads. Um, they're act, our ads actually [00:54:25] drove. Qualified pipeline instead of just like, you know, the, the glamor [00:54:30] metrics that we were looking at previously when I started. Um, and, and then [00:54:35] we, you know, like I would show the full picture of it was like, show and tell [00:54:40] enterprise deal.

Kacie Jenkins: Here's the last three deals. Here's what happened, here's what transpired. You can actually see [00:54:45] the multi-threading happen. You can see the, the multi-channel engagement. You can see where there's a [00:54:50] spike and there's a ton of ad engagement and organic engagement, and then there's like a sales. [00:54:55] Uh, in interaction.

Kacie Jenkins: Um, and you know, we obviously threaded direct [00:55:00] mail and gifting through all of that in a really thoughtful, um, personalized way, and [00:55:05] a lot of that was augmented by ai. Um, and, and so, [00:55:10] you know, like if you look, if you, if you end up looking at it full picture, it's a lot easier than [00:55:15] if you're just looking at the last touch.

Kacie Jenkins: That's like. All of this came through [00:55:20] direct, you know, direct opportunities, which is utterly meaningless. Um, [00:55:25] it doesn't show you any of the things that happened before they actually came direct to [00:55:30] the website.

Craig Rosenberg: that was amazing. How about that, [00:55:35] Matt?

Matt Amundson: I mean,

Craig Rosenberg: A brand person coming in hot. Oh, what do you, are you [00:55:40] poo-pooing it?

Matt Amundson: am I on, let's re it?

Craig Rosenberg: Kacie, let's watch you went. Mm,

Matt Amundson: [00:55:45] Oh, this, this is what Kacie's known for, right? Like this is like, [00:55:50] I think, you know, a story like that solidifies the way she talks and the way she builds [00:55:55] GTM, and it's, in a lot of cases, people think about brand and they think about how it's like, you [00:56:00] know, it's art school and it's, you know, it's this and that.

Matt Amundson: But like, when you can tie [00:56:05] it into real results like that, it's just. That's how it goes from being something that you sort of [00:56:10] pontificate, uh, uh, about like in CMO circles and you take it straight to a [00:56:15] board and it makes sense to everybody. So what a great way

Craig Rosenberg: What.

Matt Amundson: off the [00:56:20] pod

Craig Rosenberg: Bam. That's the transaction, man. Let's go. I'm [00:56:25] going to, I'm going to Vegas. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: And then I'll be going to bed. I'm gonna go to [00:56:30] bed tonight at 10:00 PM Um, the M resort, I

Craig Rosenberg: don't know what that is. [00:56:35]

Matt Amundson: it's nice.

Craig Rosenberg: We have to because the, we're not playing on, I mean, yeah. [00:56:40] So, uh, we used to stay at somewhere in Henderson and they [00:56:45] closed the pool. So we have all these kids, so we needed one that kept the pool open. [00:56:50] So yes.

Matt Amundson: in Vegas this time of year.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, I don't want it to [00:56:55] be chilly.

Matt Amundson: It could be chilly.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, that's not good. I want to go to one of those [00:57:00] restaurants in like the outside the strip, like a famous one that's been [00:57:05] around since. Ace Rosenthal was there type of thing. I, I don't know, like [00:57:10] red velvet type stuff. But anyway, um, Kacie, you're the best. [00:57:15] Thank you. Great show.

Craig Rosenberg: You're coming back. It was was awesome.

Matt Amundson: That was so [00:57:20] good.

Thanks for joining us for another episode of the Transaction, Craig, and I [00:57:25] really appreciate the fact that you've listened all the way to the end. What are you actually doing here? [00:57:30] For show notes and other episodes, please visit us@thetransactionpod.com, like and subscribe on [00:57:35] Spotify, apple Podcast or any other place you get your podcast from.[00:57:40]

Either you have walked away from your [00:57:45] podcast device. Or this is playing somewhere in the background. Someone in your house would [00:57:50] really like for you to shut this off [00:57:55] [00:58:00] now.