The Transaction

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: [00:00:00] Before we start, I just want you to know that, uh, I'm excited to have you on for a couple reasons. One is, uh, You know, when I, when I had Topo and you were like the, uh, the analyst over at Forrester, we just, I had to follow everything. I had to hear, get all these pings about

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: I, same on you, Craig, so I'm just, I'm so excited to get to spend some time with you. You're a living legend, um, and what you accomplished at Topo and the acquisition there, I, I hear about that all the time as well, so, it's very cool to be

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Oh, that's awesome. Okay. Well then before we start, Matt, um, what are your thoughts on me being a living legend? Go.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: I mean, that's high praise, uh, and if I were you, I would, uh, I would relish that. I'd appreciate it. I know you've got three young kids at the house who certainly,

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: believe that.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: don't always think that way. I have two young kids at my house who certainly don't think that way about me. So, you know, take the compliment where you can get it, Craig.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, [00:01:00] I appreciate that. so as I, you know, just mentioned like, you know, Mary was sort of the, uh, the, the person that my team at Topa used to always alert me to, and then, you know, uh, we, we did briefings together, um, when I was at Gartner and you were at Outreach, but you know, it's always interesting to me that like, What added credibility, uh, for me with you was that you had years before of actually chief commercial officer experience, GM experience.

You know, this was not an ivory tower, uh, type of analyst. And that, you know, that background is, is amazing. If you, if you look at Mary's [00:02:00] background, he's a chief commercial officer as experience and also an adjunct assistant professor of marketing. So like a, a both scholar and a doer, um, and then yours is like one of the best analysts in the business at Forster.

Um, the, uh, two years as an evangelist at Outreach, a co CEO, but CEO of MediaFly. And now it sounds like you're doing some advising again. And, uh, we can talk about that, but incredible experience. And that's why we're so excited to have you, Mary Shea, on the show. The transaction. Thank you so much. So, the first question we ask everyone to start the conversation is this.

Which is, like, what is that thing that the market thinks is a best practice, an approach, a methodology, a truism, whatever that might be, Um, that we need to help them think another way. You know, we like to say, they're wrong, and here's how you do it. But a nice way to say it is, well, they [00:03:00] should be maybe thinking about it a different way, and thinking about a different approach.

And that's how we like to start. And so, I'm going to leave that to you. I'm going to set the table there, and let's see where it goes from here.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me on the show, Craig and Matt, it's amazing to be here, as, uh, you know from our previous conversations, I have the highest regard for you both, and Craig is an analyst, our past, the cross, the, Um, yeah, and I'm, I'm excited to riff with you on all things sales tech, rev tech, B2B, buying and selling.

I think the latest thing that I'm, I'm kind, kind of obsessed with right now, and you know, you know how the analyst is. Once you, I've done a lot of different jobs, but once you get an obsession on an idea, like you can't let it go. And I wrote about this back in 2017 when I was at Forrester, and it was really this concept, and I didn't have a name for it, which I do now, which is.

The Agile Tech-Enabled Salesforce. And my, my thought at the time, um, many years ago was there would [00:04:00] be a world where salespeople, um, would achieve their biggest goals, their biggest dreams, but they'd be partnered with, uh, technology, amplified or augmented, however we want to talk about it or to think about it.

And in this world, they probably work three or four days a week. They made more money than they'd ever made before, and they had consultative impact on their customers in a bigger way than they'd ever experienced. And so, I started thinking about that in 2017, and now we're really on the cusp of it, especially as you see how quickly Gen AI, um, has been commercialized and starting to have an impact in revenue organizations in so many different ways.

And I think the biggest thing that I want to debunk now, I guess, to get to the heart of your question, which is, if I, if I'm a revenue leader and I need another million bucks in quota, I don't need to go out and hire three salespeople. Um, you know, one who's going to fail, two that are going to compete against each other, and one [00:05:00] who's actually going to meet their quota.

It's a different world. I need to think about technology as another arrow in my quiver. Um, as this arrow that's going to help me operationalize my sales strategy, and of course all your listeners know, sales strategy is a way to operationalize your company strategy. So I think that, you know, people are still thinking about sales and quota and reaching and exceeding those at the leadership level in a way that's dated.

And I'm encouraging leaders, whenever I talk to them, to start to think about a much smaller organization where, 80 percent of your sellers are going to achieve 100 percent of your revenue, and that's very different from the 80 20 rule that we've all grown up on, or some of us who have been around here for a while.

And I think it's time to lean into that, and I'm just not totally seeing that, and I think, you know, as you know, Craig, sometimes we're a little bit ahead of our time. Um, so I do think that we are going to have very, very small [00:06:00] sales organizations, and they're going to be augmented by technology. and It's going to be an amazing profession.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: yeah, there's the well the three days a week thing me and Matt were like looking at each other going Okay, this is interesting. Let's go with that the Yeah, yeah, so a couple words. I think are important one is augmented. Did you use that word purposely?

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yes, I did. Um, you know, you, I think a lot about, you know, 1996 when Granger put the first catalog online, remember that? And then all the salespeople were freaking out. They were smart enough to double pay. Um, but there was this buzz going around and Andy Hoar who I'm sure you know, he was a big analyst at Forrester at the time, wrote the death of the B2B salesman.

And that caused all this. Um, but the reality is, you know, great salespeople are going to be needed ad infinitum. People buy from people they know, like, and trust. People want to [00:07:00] look somebody in the eye. If I'm betting my career on a big initiative, I want someone on the vendor side, or partner side, who's going to be on the hook with me.

So yes, I used augmented as a way to purposely say, I don't think that technology is going to take over. I think it's just going to allow sellers to spend more time on upstream activities, things that are more impactful, and to drive more, um, profitable growth for the organizations they rep.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, I totally agree. It's an important word Because like even on our interviews you see this You Uh, you see that in my opinion, the, the rise of technology, the augmentation side and the issue with selling, those two things can be merged. Whereas you see a lot of people, by the way, including Matt, you got to admit, yeah, that was an accusation.

Let's

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Uh oh. Mm hmm. Uh

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Is that no, because you sometimes blame [00:08:00] technology for the issues with selling. That was

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Tell me more.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Well, I think,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: I forgot. No, it's your

show. Only tell me if you want to.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: I was so excited that I got to

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: yeah. So I mean, in the same way, I think it, it, it, it, it lines up well with what Mary's talking about here, which is if you're augmenting a sales rep, who's great, you're going to get great results. If you're augmenting a sales rep, who's not great, you're going to get not great results and it will be amplified by that technology.

So if you are enabled, trained, understand your customers, understand your product, And I think more importantly now than ever before, understand the market and the way the market is going. And you're able to articulate that in a sales cycle technology that enables you to do that three times more frequently than you could before is going to be great.

If you can't do those things, then that augmentation is going to be negative. And so like, I think that, uh, I, [00:09:00] I a hundred percent agree with, with Mary, which is that sales reps are going nowhere. And I think everybody who works in an organization that has somewhat of a talent spread in their, in their sales organization, somebody who's really great and somebody who's at the very bottom knows the difference between a high quality rep and a low quality rep and what that means.

And certainly everybody is trying to say, give me the top. man or woman on the sales team and replicate them as much as possible or replicate the, the, the positive impact that they have on the business as much as possible. I think the challenge is trying to figure out exactly what technology is out there that can do that for you.

That's, that's, I think that's the challenge right now.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, I totally agree, Matt. You know what I Craig and I, we've supported big technology purchases, right, for customers, and you know, they go through the whole process, and the quadrants, and the waves, and the this and the that, and at the end of the day, it's really, you can pick the best widget, but it's not really about just pressing that button, [00:10:00] it's about the people and processes that are behind them.

I agree with you, Matt, that, um, we don't want more of what's bad. Um, we want the most creative, uh, technology savvy, um, super smart, insightful sales people to be amplified. And when I think of augmentation and amplification, it's not just, I can do more faster, like marketing automation or, No disrespect to my previous company, Outreach, which I love.

It's not just about more sequences, it's about personalization, customization, what am I doing with the insights that I've learned from the data capture, and how does that put me in a position to have much more meaningful interactions with my customers and prospects.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. Yeah.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: For sure. So yeah, so like, if I'm just doing back of the envelope, Matt. So, You're saying sales reps aren't going anywhere, Matt. But she But we are saying that We can go to [00:11:00] to battle with less

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: I think so. I think you could be more efficient. I think you could, and I think reps want that. I think they want a smaller team where they have the ability to sell more

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: yeah, I mean, I don't know any rep that doesn't,

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: in a,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: I mean, that's, that, that concept will never change, right? Um, I think you're absolutely right. And, and that's why I keep going back to the, you know, Agile technology enabled Salesforce. So, it's gonna be a small cadre, and it's gonna be probably very small as we continue to move forward.

But those top, top performers are gonna be in massive demand and probably make more money than they've ever dreamed of. And also be able to do a bunch of other things and spend time with their families and so on. Hopefully technology makes our lives better. Doesn't always work that way.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: yeah, yeah.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: some reps are going away. So sales as a profession isn't going anywhere, but we are, we are going to peel off like a fair number of them because we can be [00:12:00] more efficient than we could

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: yeah, 100 percent I think just the cream of the crop is going to be the ones that remain, right, and the ones that embrace the technology and, um, squeeze every ounce of not just productivity but intelligence out of that. I think that's the next stage, which is, it's not just productivity and efficiency, it's also Um, there will be less, and this might be another show, or it might be this show, but probably the SDR role, or the top of the funnel role, you're going to see, I don't know that that role survives, and apologies to anyone, any SDRs listening, maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, I don't have a clear view of that, I'd love your thoughts, Craig.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: I think, um, well, you know, one is like you, the other, I'll just bring back one of the other words, which is we're on the cusp and it, and you can do a lot of things today. The market has to be ready, which is [00:13:00] like, you know, we're in that, that period here where, uh, the technology is advancing faster than ever.

And there is a suite of tools you can use to, to, uh, Do what you're talking about, Mary, but the market has to be ready. We're sort of in that gap where we're, you know, we're, we're starting to fill it. SDRs are a big one because, um, I, I, uh, so I believe that the insights, the inbound SDR is, uh, going to be a bot, a robot.

Because that is a low, the, the touches and messaging in that is, are low value. Um, and, uh, don't require the level of personalization, the big ones. I think the, the, the question is, at least in the near term, and this might change the, uh, the outbound pursuit of, uh, targeted accounts. Now, you [00:14:00] know, hypothet, not hypothetically, literally.

A sales rep has tools at their disposal today, and it will get even better that they don't need an SDR. Uh, but, uh, I don't know that we're there yet, and like, I'm not sure, there's a, there's such a pipeline gap right now that everyone's seeing, that I think in the near term, augmented, uh, high value SDRs will, will remain.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: I agree.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: um, and I think that's, but, but, you know, the augmentation you talk about, there's some brilliant stuff happening on the SDR side as well to augment them to be bigger, better, faster. But more importantly, as you said, personalized. valuable, um, and capable, even at a really young age and a level of experience that is like oftentimes a 10th of what a really good personalized sales rep could do.

So [00:15:00] I don't want to call for the end of the SDR. I'm not ready for that. And it could just be like my bleeding heart. I, uh, but I do think at least in the near term, I do think like if I had to, you know, if someone came to me, I'd say, well, look, you start, start, have inbound SDR so you can learn everything.

But like, Uh, when you want to start making cuts, bring automation in because that part of your business can be automated. Uh, the, uh, and then we have to, you can, by augmenting SDRs, you can actually do less. Cause that was another arms race, you know, four years ago, which was,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: when I was at Outreach, we probably had 70 or 200 SDRs, you know, in the prime, right? So, SDRs, I agree with you, I'm not ready to call for the end of it, and as co CEO of MediaFly, I, um, winnowed down that organization, but I still saw it as a crucial, important part of the whole demand gen piece.

So, I don't think we can afford to let them go, but again, there'll be less of them, right? Because [00:16:00] instead of having 20, I had, you know, 4 to 5, right? And I think you'll see

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: writ large. Um, but you're right, I,

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: I agree there. I agree there. I think the other thing too is I think the ubiquity of SDRs is going to change because I think that there will be organizations that need SDRs and Whether through their brand or whether through the products that they sell, um, the, the SDR function will facilitate a lot of demand for them.

But I think for, for other organizations who have just kind of been like, well, this is a part of the, the typical playbook at this point, this is when you add an SDR team, this is how many you add. I think that playbook is going to change pretty dramatically just because we've seen outbound, um, um, Prospecting really fall into decline.

But I think if you're an Oracle, if you're a Google, if you're even a brand like Rippling, where there's a lot of brand awareness for you and somebody is just not responding to your email, but they might respond to a phone call, [00:17:00] uh, they still play a very important role in the, in the go to market functions within those businesses.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. And they'd be even better Yeah.

Yeah,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: mean, I think we're, we're, we're talking in, in, in somewhat in generalities here, but it does depend on what you're selling motions like, what your ideal customer profile looks like. If, you know, if you're, if you're targeting the world's largest B2B brands, then, you know, you probably have a small group of SDRs, but they might be a bit more tenured than, you know, if you had a more

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Mm hmm.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: type of, uh, sale.

So there's, there's lots of, um, factors, right? When you continue, when you consider your sales strategy. Yeah,

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: back on being on the cusp. So today, Mary, when you talk to someone today and they're saying for the, you know, next year I've got to do X amount. So I'm going to go hire the heck out of people or even hire any, you can make, you can make the recommendation today that they [00:18:00] look at automation in order to, uh, you know, supercharge the current team versus adding more people or even making plans to do less people than they even, that they even have today.

Uh, but you would, you can't, you know, because I'm trying to sort of think about we're on the cusp, right? But like you do make that recommendation today and like, what do you say? And what's there, like have you seen anybody sort of embrace that and what kind of moves did they make? You know, as a result of that

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: I think there's, there's a lot of different moves. I mean, you Yeah, with the way of the world, you know, companies of all shapes and sizes can't afford to grow at all costs, right? Every company is under some sort of scrutiny right now, um, to drive efficient, profitable growth, right? Which, which seems simple, but You know, not what we've been doing over the last 10 to 15 years, at least in tech.

[00:19:00] And I think it really starts with really revisiting your roles and your role descriptions, right? Um, now we've got, uh, generative AI and we can spin up role descriptions really, really quickly, but the roles of, of, um, SDRs and AEs and, and post sale personnel have changed a little bit as the buyer has changed right now.

Um, you know, I think Gardner, we know a lot of Gardner's research, they're saying that the buyer is spending about 5 percent of their time with the seller. So that means you need fundamentally different types of sellers and you need to maximize that moment, like there's no mulligans now. I know we always said that, but when you're thinking about 90 percent of the buyer's, 95 percent of the buyer's journey is sort of on their own when you have that moment.

It's really a different type of, of, of profile. And so the first thing I, I recommend to leaders is go take a look at your profiles, assess your team, probably redo your job descriptions, do it with, [00:20:00] uh, generative AI, and you should probably look at those job descriptions every six months, right? It's, um, the world is moving so fast right now that you can't sort of just, um, you know, check that box and move on to the next thing.

Um, I think You've probably got to pair back your team and figure out where you're going to invest in, and you've got to upskill folks as well. I think at a time like this, I would invest in internal and external enablement and sales training. We've seen enablement professionals taking a real hit out there in the marketplace.

They're the first people to go on the sales team when the going gets hard. I think that's where you really need to invest. And then, you've got to make sure you've got the right stack. And that you're continuously developing and upskilling your folks so they can maximize the use of that stack. So it's more than, you know, it's a multi pronged process, as you know, Craig, right?

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: it feels like, yeah, the, by the way, I just recapping, [00:21:00] yes, we, when the, when the S hit the fan, so to speak, the sales enablement, what people went, uh, and, uh, and then everyone asked, well, why aren't the sellers

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Why aren't the sellers performing? Why don't we better. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

no one's supporting them, right? It's hard. It's really hard.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Mary, we've seen a lot of specialization in sales over the course of the last 20 years as like the rise of the SDR, the rise of the solutions engineer, sales consultants, sales architect, whatever you want to call it. So there's, there's become these specialized roles that exist in sales where in the past, a single seller was responsible for Building their own pipeline, running somebody through a sales presentation, possibly even demoing them through the product.

Are you calling for even more specialization within the sales function?

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, again, you know, a little bit of it depends on what, you know, what your [00:22:00] selling motion's like, what your ICP is like. I actually think we're going to see less specialization just because the economics don't make sense. I mean, we're not in a world where we can necessarily bring in, you know, five highly highly paid people to help close a deal.

Certainly if it's a seven figure deal, you know, you do those kinds of things. I think we'll see. Um, more, uh, horizontal reps versus that specialization because the buyer's so able to do so much on their own, whether they, you know, are listening to podcasts like this, reading research of our colleagues and friends, going to, um, a peer review website, reaching out, you know, doing their own research, going to an event.

So I feel like there's less need for that specialization across the sales cycle and more need for I almost want to say like, you know, the McKinsey partner, you know, associate partner, junior partner, where someone is just more generally consultative in their approach and they're using the [00:23:00] insights that's generated by the rich data capture to inform themselves before every touch point and interaction.

Um, I just don't think it's practical to be paying so many different folks. So that's one angle. And then the other angle is I think you'll see more, um, top to top. So sellers are going to people who are outside of the direct selling organization to support, um, you know, sort of the education and evaluation and deal closing stage until they get to the transaction as you all are calling your show, um, that they'll be using the C suite and, and, and other folks versus paying so many people, like sales engineers are expensive.

Um, so, I mean, we'll see.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. And hard to hire.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Um, Mary, based on your, um, impromptu advertisement for the transaction, I'd like Matt to show you his technology advance. Ready, Matt?

[00:24:00] The

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: A

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: So when we, uh, it's, I wish it were a little quicker, but the, but we, you know, he bought a clapper. So we like to use it when you make it to, uh, yeah. So, but Matt, when you were talking specialization, you were thinking like solutions, consultants, SCEs, SDRs, all the things that surround them. The SCE thing is really interesting to me right now, because it seems like even though the buyers can do a lot of research.

Uh, they need a lot up front from the salesperson in technical and [00:25:00] application specific,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: I agree, I advice. It's really interesting, isn't

Yeah, you know, at MediaFly we, again, we winnowed down the size of the SE organization, but that professional and internal persona is really important. You know, what could happen, again, not to be too controversial, is the SE becomes the seller, right? Because, um, you Matt They're not going to have to be chasing deals so much.

You've got DocuSign, you've got Automation, you've got different ways, you've got deal rooms where you're doing the final stages of it. Do we have a different type of seller who is more technical, smartest guy or gal in the room, versus someone who's just running around, I don't know, organizing the resources and chasing the revenue, chasing the paper. Mm totally clear for me. Is that a better profile for the salesperson of the future, [00:26:00] perhaps?

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: seemed to be very excited about that. Matt?

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. I've been calling for this for a long time, actually.

Uh, I know. by the way, there's no record of said calling on this, but go ahead, go ahead.

All right. It's been in, it's been in closed, closed, closed door rooms, but,

uh,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: believe, I believe you, Matt. I

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: He's just, he's just running, he's doing his run in Foster City. He's like, you know what?

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: this. I believe you. Craig's just giving you a hard time.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. Well, he usually does. Uh, the Whether or not they become the, the, the only seller, I think that it's time for them to be the primary seller, uh, which is like a reinvention of the sales process, meaning if I'm buying a technical product, I want to talk to a technical person right up front.

And I think as a company that sells a technical product, you want a prospect talking to a technical person right up front, because in a lot of cases, they're trying to dot I's and cross T's to figure out, is this solution [00:27:00] going to work for me? I've got a lot of questions about whether or not I should even be a part of an evaluation here.

And putting somebody like that right up front is great. The thing that I think might be interesting is because a lot of these people aren't necessarily like sales inclined, would then be to, you know, Once something's been proven out, you know, we've taken it through qualification. We've done our validation.

Maybe at that point, an AE should get involved in order to come in and wrangle a deal and do all the work to get, you know, things through finance and approval queues there. Uh, and that, that, that's a, that's a different motion, but I think it's actually one that buyers want. And I think we've been so grandfathered into this idea that the flow has to be, SDR does some level of light qualification, hands off to an AE who then does discovery and maybe slide wear in a high level demo.

And then they bring on the technical resource who then proves everything that the person, the people [00:28:00] before them said is true. And then the AE comes back in to work the deal. I wonder if we just move, remove an entire step, if that would be more beneficial to a

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: You know, possibly, I mean, I think a couple of things, you know, since buyers are quite informed when they have that initial conversation and you know, the research is saying they're somewhere in the range of 70 percent sort of decided that they want to go in this direction or they've got a short list of vendors that they're pretty educated when they come to that conversation.

So they want to talk to the smart person, you know, quickly. And I'm not saying that salespeople aren't smart, but they want to get into it quickly, right? They don't want to go through all the other stuff. So. I think that's, that's interesting to think about. The other devil's advocate to, to what you said is, I think the most successful sales experiences are also when you're, you know, whether you start or somewhere you're at the C suite or the VP level.

Like I'd want to be careful about getting archive downstream with two technical people [00:29:00] talking. So that's just something I would worry about. Right. Which is at the end of the day, you. You need to educate the CRO or Chief Sales Officer and I think if you think about Gartner, and they do a great job, probably several levels down, um, but, you know, is that, how do you have that conversation with that CSO too, because at the end of the day, them and the CFO and the C suite's somehow going to be involved in this decision.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, yeah.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, here, I have a, I, so I, I appreciate your take, Matt.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Okay, we're, we're just going to see where this is going to go now.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: And the, the, it here, but I'll give you a different way to look at it. And, and where I see the, so there's, there is an emerging sort of SE tech stack. Um, you think about the test boxes of the world, right? Where the, you know, just trying to alleviate the demo issue, which by the way in tech, in the hardcore tech is [00:30:00] an issue.

You're doing like three or four demos in a sales cycle and you got to bring the crew. So, uh, that costs a lot and does not scale. Um, and so that's one piece. The other is like, uh, Um, The technical knowledge, right? Being able to provide easy access to the sales rep so they don't have to punt everything and move everything to the back.

So in many ways, uh, part of what you're talking about could be viewed the other way, which is there could be less SEs, they will never go away, but we can replicate a lot of their activities on behalf of the sales rep who still has to do. Business discovery, business positioning, closing. Just another way to look at it.

I actually completely understand So that's the overall point of view that you guys are both bringing to the table there. I see that. That's, it's true. Like, and like, one is what, you know, sort of, as [00:31:00] you, you and Mary led down the path, which is the specialization thing. We're going to have to break that down.

Right. Because we, it just, A, you can now, right. And B, it just doesn't work economically. I mean, it it, yeah, we, you know, it, that's how it was the last 15 years and now, you know, we're, we're at a different juncture where that's not going to fly on the, on the economic side and, and the margin side. I think the other thing that we haven't really touched on here is that there are great technologies now that help with demos, right?

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: So demo automation, and again, I don't think it replaces or the SE goes away, but You know, you can have two SEs supporting a pretty large sales organization instead of 20. So, if you think about, you can start to have, um, demos on your website, you can have interactive demos, you can share those with, um, as part of the process, and then, um, lead that up to the big demo, right?

But you've eliminated, [00:32:00] you know, the SE from having to be on six or seven other calls. So, I think that's That's something that I don't see a lot of organizations really digging into and making themselves um, more effective and efficient through demo automation. Right.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: point, which is like, now you could take an SE and they're only going hand to hand on the most meaningful, right? And they're able to be the most personalized they can

be to deliver that knock it out of the

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: the other five steps have already been done. Now we want to see, you know, our brand, our logo, our use case. Um, yes. I Um, to kind of swing the conversation that we haven't really talked about is like, think about value selling and value engineers and how companies, you know, big tech will have 20 value engineers.

And now there's a number of companies and out there that, [00:33:00] um, provide tools where salespeople can really talk intelligently about the quantitative impact of their product and solution. And they can also do it on, um, You know, when they're coming up for a renewal, what was the realized value over the last 12 months or 24 months or whatever it was?

And I see that is going to be a big area too, particularly as every purchase is becoming more and more scrutinized.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. So Mary, one, one thing I wanted to go into with you just because you know, we're talking about augmenting a sales org. We're making a sales organization more efficient so that we can do it with smaller numbers. I want you to name. Like brands or anything like that. But what are some of the categories that you're starting to see emerge that you think will have an impact on making the sales team, uh, more efficient where we can, we're, we can spend more time on automation or use, uh, AI for this so that we can start to realize a future where the, the team [00:34:00] ends up being maybe a half, maybe a third, maybe in as low as a quarter, the size that we would've expected.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, so when you think about um, leading edge, bleeding edge companies, I always go back to tech because that's, you know, we're willing to, We're willing to do experiments, we're willing to get it wrong and fail and learn and iterate and come back and do it again. So, I think the companies that can effectively consolidate their tech stack, because if you have bloated stacks, then you have disparate data, and then you can't take advantage of the insights and intelligence that can be derived from the AI.

So I think tech will lead that, but I did some, um, research this, this morning. Um, this past summer, or last summer, uh, where I went out and surveyed 300 revenue leaders and one of the things that we found was that companies that were tracking to meet or exceed their quota, 67 percent, um, [00:35:00] were experimenting with generative AI and it wasn't limited to technology companies, it was, I probably looked at, um, 14 to 15 different uh, industry verticals.

And so, I think, you know, so, to answer your question very directly, Matt, I think tech and companies that can consolidate and really get tight with their data strategy will be the first to realize that and lead the charge. But I also think, um, this is a moment for traditional industries and traditional businesses where if they're, if they can spin up a Gen AI group and think about two to three different initiatives that they want to start to prioritize, Those companies are going to also, um, be very, very successful and we're already seeing that they are, even when they're just experimenting with it versus, you know, successfully using Gen AI on, uh, retention or thought leadership or, um, insights on your pipeline and forecast and, and deals and so on.

Um, I think we're in a interesting moment in [00:36:00] time where you're seeing, we're continuing to see tech shed. Folks through RIFs and um, you know, uh, so on and so forth. Um, and what a tremendous boon this is for traditional gritty industries or legacy types of companies to pick up some of that tech and, um, use it to their advantage and to become, um, differentiated from their competitive set.

So I think there will be, you know, a handful of big traditional companies that can embrace this next moment in time, whether that's through Um, and they'll be able to benefit from some of these new models that we're talking about.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. I'd like to, so I'd like to go a level deeper there, which is, you know, I think the table stakes of the sales stack now have become some sort of, you know, sales engagement platform. Like where you worked in the past. [00:37:00] Um, certainly a call recording, uh, uh, software. Um, you know, we all know who those folks are.

Uh, I guess we can do commercials for these folks. Outreach and Gong, right? Like that, that's, that's, that's sort of table stakes for the space. You know, everybody knows I'm a big sales loft guy. Um, and certainly like newer technology, like Apollo, which is, you know, sort of exploding onto the scene, but like, to me, that all kind of feels a little bit similar, which is like, Hey, this lets us call and email and sort of track our calls and there's, you know, Tons of great insights that you get, get from that.

But what are some of the other places where you're thinking, you know, sales leaders should be thinking about making investment that are going to amplify or augment their sales team to be more successful. We talked about, you know, the, the, um, the test boxes of the world and, and, and sort of the automated demoing, but what else is out there?

I think, I think our, our listeners are, are, are hungry to hear, you know, what, where they should be starting to investigate.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. Great. Great [00:38:00] question. So, I think it's less about This new technology that no one knows about that they should be getting. And because there's like, quite frankly, there's a lot of sales tech out there, even, even still, even as we're seeing, you know, some companies not being able to make the journey and consolidation.

I think the, for your listeners, the big thing that, that I would be focused on is, is starting to, you know, the overused word consolidate or streamline my sales tech stack and figure out. who to invest with, who has multiple products, uh, over a platform with a unified data set, and who also has a very exciting vision, not just a vision for the future, but things that they can do today that leverage embedded AI and generative AI specifically, an exciting, uh, vision for the future, and then make the bet with that partner and then really lean in and partner with them [00:39:00] Versus, gosh, I should go out and get, you know, I should go get demo automation.

I should go get, you know, um, a social selling tool and advocacy. It's the companies that are going to bring all of these tools together, whether that's through deep integrations and strategic partnerships and M& A or their own internal product development with a single data set that I think are going to be the winners, and that's where I think your listeners should focus on versus saying, Hey, I need to go. I need to go buy Sprout, or I need to go, I don't want to use, you know, company names, or I need to buy this, I need to buy this. You've got to start to move away from the point solutions and look at the vendors that can support every meaningful activity on the, that activity and process that has to happen on the revenue cycle and also support the buyer.

So if you think about, you know, The ability to share and get rich signals back on digital content. The ability to have call coaching. The ability to [00:40:00] have intelligence in, on your pipeline. And, and understand the health of every deal and the forecast. And then the ability to, um, also grab signals from social interactions on LinkedIn.

It's the company that can bring all of this together. Those, those vendors. Um, and I just haven't seen, I haven't seen that yet. Because everyone's worried about You know, they're having to offshore innovation because they can't have down rounds, they can't, you know, get more money, they're trying to focus on their biggest clients, um, there's all kinds of different things that are happening and to, you know, go back to your, you mentioned SalesLoft, who I followed very closely, you know, back in the day and have relationships with the original executives there. You know, we saw the drift merger acquisition through, um, you know, sort of a Well, I think that was good. I'm like, why is it taking so long? Why, you know, if Seismic and SalesLoft [00:41:00] merge or there's an acquisition there, okay, then I'm going to start to pay attention. Like, then we're starting to get to, you know, really interesting things.

So, I think that was a roundabout way of saying, I think it's less about running after point solutions and really starting to think about vendors that have the ability to support the entire revenue cycle on a vision. Um, for the future of generative AI and how that works and, and, and make your bet cause you're not going to get everything from everyone and there's going to be trade offs.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. Yeah. So I think if, uh, I think a good strategy coming from that would be go to the, the vendors that you have today for your sales tech and, roadmap is. Mm hmm. Figure out where their, their heads are and, and what, what their product direction

is, and then figure out the ones that are, yeah,

go ahead. Yeah. think that's all of it Matt. I think it's, like if you talk to CRO's or different leaders or even, you know, folks in RevOps or managing these relationships, they honestly do not know the [00:42:00] capabilities that this thing has. All the Hmm. that every vendor has.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: So I think the first step is go, you know, number one, we're saying go audit your, your tech, your stack and understand where the end dates are. I would say before you even do that, dive into every vendor and understand, do they have call coaching? Do they have, you know, a content management solution? Do they have the ability to, you know, link, link in with external social?

Do they, you know, have intelligence? It's like. Because all these vendors that we've mentioned, whether it's Gong, MediaFly, SalesLive, they all have duplicative functionalities, and most companies are paying double, triple, quadruple for those, and they shouldn't be.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: yeah, I mean I think that makes sense and I think there are, where there's like sort of, I hate to call it this, but like commoditized feature, like features where you're not going to get a huge lift from a point solution. [00:43:00] Like call,

you know, the call record, the actual, yeah, that's something you shouldn't pay twice

for, agree. are,

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: And the other thing I'll say, Dan, is

also like, if you're not in tech, and I don't want to use the name of the company because I don't want anyone to get mad at me. But does it make sense to pay for the category leader? Because maybe you just need a sliver of the call coaching, right?

If you're a more traditional business. Like, so why are you paying that company triple when you could maybe get it from someone else?

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: yeah, I mean, I just, like to me, a lot of the, a lot of the aggregation in the space, the, the feature that they brought over and added to the stack hasn't been Uh, necessarily better than the point solution. And I do, and I'm not sure like people are ready to sacrifice function out like forecasting is an example there where it's been added to other stuff, but it's just not good enough yet.

Call recordings one where [00:44:00] you

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, I think you have to look at the business process, right? And forecasting's an area where you can't mess around, right? You're going to get fired if you can't deliver on your forecast as a chief. Revenue officer, sales officer. So, you know, we saw that at, you know, I was at different companies that had so called forecasting capabilities and we could never win against, uh, that other company that all the, you know, the four letter company that, um, that all the CROs actually really, really like, right?

Because they're used to it. But that company wasn't necessarily pulling in all the behavioral data. So, you know, until they get there, um, You know, there's still challenges, but yes, there are certain business processes where you just simply can't mess around, right? And I do think forecasting certainly is one of them.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, I got one, one other thing with the five minutes left that I, so this, this topic has come up. Five or six times in the [00:45:00] last two weeks. Ready? I'm going to say it. Matt, I'm going to, you're going to go first on your reaction and then we'll let Mary take it home. No, no, you got this one. Um, signal based selling.

I've heard it and we had it on one of the guests on the show. I just had a council today with our sales development and I had my biggest turnout to learn more about signal based selling. Uh, so just, I'm just going to say the word. Signal-based selling. Your reaction. Go.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Uh, so I think, uh, it's, it's important. I think it will be a movement. I think people are going to talk about it a ton. My, uh, I, I I had a partner day, uh, at my company yesterday and one of the partners there had, I think the, the, the best way of, of, of encapsulating signal based selling, which is like.

Um, sales, marketing, sales development don't need more data, they need more information. Right? There is a proliferation of data, but how do we [00:46:00] take that data and make it meaningful and transition it from data to information? Because I do think data has become a little bit of a bad word in sales circles, right?

Like,

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah,

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Great. You're giving me all this stuff, but what can I actually do with it? Uh, and, and to me being able to distill it down into, uh, a location where they operate, right? So whether that's putting it into, you know, their, their, their engagement platform, or it's putting it into CRM, uh, that's one, two, that that signal is somehow meaningful, that it makes sense for them to get it so that they can, uh, use it as part of their selling motion.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Yeah, love it. Well, so I'll, I'll confess, um, that That's the first time I've actually heard that phrase, that phraseology.

Signal based look at that. We got to launch it in Mary's Lexicon today. That's a win. Take Take it, take it, uh, for the win. And I've got a whiteboard desk here, so I just wrote it down, guys. So thank you for that. I learned something today. Um, [00:47:00] and I love it.

I think it's certainly, it's a very catchy phrase. I expect it'll continue to catch on. I agree with you, Matt, um, and I'm gonna, I'll take your information one step for, further and say, there is a plethora of information, so I would look at it more as insights. So maybe you start to think of the role of marketing as starting to funnel, you know, as, as, whatever your position is, these are the insights that you need, um, for where you are in this stage with this customer, and take these insights and patch them up and, And then go have meaningful conversations.

So I would say it's not about data. It's not about information. It's actually truly about insights so that at every connection point, whether that's digital, virtual, um, in person or whatever, you are able to have a very meaningful discourse back and forth. And that's the hope and excitement of all of this, right?

If you can do that, then the experience between buyers and sellers is [00:48:00] Continues to improve and everybody wins. So I love that.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Well, we loved having you on here,

Craig, you want to bring us home? Well, I'm not sure Matt, because I'm like, don't want it to end, but I will bring it home. All right. All right.

I'm sorry.

craig_10_03-22-2024_120829: No, I, I think, um, I think one big takeaway for me is that so someone like us on the show and Mary, like we are like in massive, we're taking in as much information about what's next on sales tech.

As anybody else, it's so interesting. There's a lot happening and AI clearly accelerated this. And Jenna AI accelerated this. It's actually a ton of fun to talk about again, because I do say like for a couple of years, everyone kept wanting to talk to me about like, Oh my God, now it's like, wow, we can like, there's things we can go do.

I think it's great. And I think, um, uh, I think we're at an [00:49:00] interesting time where you said like we have, you know, we can view the fact that we need to be leaner and meter with opportunity and like, um, start to look at things a different way. That's my big takeaway. But I, Mary, I just want to say, I'm so excited that we got to hang out and talk and we're going to do it again just so we can, this is like a true, everyone talks about fireside chats.

That was a fireside chat. That was just us talking through these things and learning from each other. And that, that's what we hope to do on the show. So thank you so much for coming

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: Well, thank you for having me, Craig and Matt. It was absolutely wonderful. I love the discussion and um, yeah, let's keep it going.

matt_11_03-22-2024_120829: Thank you, Mary.

mary_1_03-22-2024_120829: guys.

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