The Transaction

TT - 065 - Tom Murtaugh
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Tom Murtaugh: [00:00:00] The number one thing is actually effectively coaching.

Most salespeople hate school.

You're not going to learn that via a lesson. You're going to learn that by watching somebody do it. It's like you need to be mentored

As everyone's talking about with ai manager spans of control probably are going to go from the six to eight to one to 10, 12, 20 to one.

What are the key activities that are actually going to drive outcomes. If you would poll a hundred Go-To-Market leaders, 30% might be able to tell you. Doing analysis, especially in the age of AI, you have all this data now. You're collecting call data,

You're collecting what the topics are that they're talking about.

You can take that and figure out exactly what is going to be driving your business and what those best reps are doing.

In the world of AI, Go-To-Market people are going to become more of an orchestrator of things and agents.

It's really hard for salespeople to trust people who haven't carried a bag before.

What I'm seeing now is like this emerging sales excellence role.

Craig Rosenberg: Hey, by the way, Matt, Tom is four weeks away from his first

child.

Matt Amundson: Oh, good Lord.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:01:00] What?

Matt Amundson: Yeah,

Tom Murtaugh: exactly,

Craig Rosenberg: reaction.

Tom Murtaugh: I think that's the appropriate reaction. I think that's

Craig Rosenberg: Well, yeah, he has two. He has two. Yeah. Yeah,

Matt Amundson: going to be special and great, and your heart's going to open up two times

larger than you.

Tom Murtaugh: I, hear is that. What I hear is, oh, your life's about to, and people fucking frame it like, oh, your life's about to change. And it's like, oh, you're telling me it's going to be a fucking like shit show

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Well, I mean, here's the thing, like there's these moments in your life where it's like you graduate college. Do you feel different? Not really. I'm just as hungover as I was two weeks ago. Like you turn 43, do you feel any different? Uh, I don't know. My knees aren't so good. You just had a kid. You feel any different?

Yeah, the whole fucking world just flipped upside down.

Tom Murtaugh: All of a sudden I have to take care of something other than myself.

Matt Amundson: Yes, yes. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Did you see, did you guys watch Echo Valley on Apple TV by any chance?

Matt Amundson: No.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay. Generally speaking. Matt, I'm Flo. It's a Sydney Sweeney movie. Thank you.

Juliette

Matt Amundson: All right. I'll check it [00:02:00] out.

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah, that's.

Craig Rosenberg: so thank you. Yeah. So, but by the way, there's this scene because basically Sweeney's, uh, you know, having trouble with drugs and, you know, getting a lot of

trouble.

And Juliette Moore is her mom, and she's hanging out on the beach, and this woman has her baby, and the baby's crying and she, and she looks at Juliette Moore and she says, do you have kids? Or whatever. She's like, yes. She says, does it get better? And she goes, no. Because the stalk answer is yes.

Um, Yeah. But it's because every, because misery loves company, because everybody wants you in, in, uh, in the,

Matt Amundson: Ask my 79-year-old father. Does it get better? He's 43. No.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. Well, I'm ha, I'm happy for you to, Tom. I'm unlike Matt and,

Matt Amundson: happy. I'm

Tom Murtaugh: I think he's just concerned. I think he's happy too. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Amundson: nervous

because right now, right now, like when I, when I look at Tom, what I see is like the version of me that I want to be. He is got a slightly better beard than [00:03:00] I do. He is got a significantly

better hairline than I have. Like, I'm in a sweater, he's in a button up.

He's got a great background. I've got this beige situation.

Tom Murtaugh: And it's all because of the kids.

It's the, it's the kids,

Matt Amundson: that are responsible for this.

Tom Murtaugh: the hair, the background. I love it. I love it.

I'll, yeah, let's do this again. Let's have this talk again in a year and see where, see where I'm

at. Yeah. like, yeah, we'll, we'll do this every year right around the birthday.

I love it.

​

Craig Rosenberg: so basically,

Introducing Tom Murtaugh, The
---

Craig Rosenberg: here's the deal. Tom was literally one of the best. Strategic Go-To-Market strategy, revenue [00:04:00] operations, Go-To-Market operations, Go-To-Market, everything, dude, I had,

I

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: so, and he's an amazing, he's a very generous. Person. So he is always willing to share. He did the, I think you saw that one where he did the Go-To-Market planning session, which is

like, we still use the

materials in his, um, presentation there. That's an example of how amazing this guy was. Then he's like, Hey dude, I'm leaving big idea and I'm about to do what you do over at in Nordic Capital.

Is that what you

guys are called? And, um. And so now he's, he's sharing with his portfolio and doing his thing across everything. And, um, so, so, yeah, it, it is. And he's become a, a good friend. I, I call him all the time. Like you, Matt, uh, typically unlike you, he'd before, oh, here's one before now. The dude was always on vacation.

I'd call him or his, or his wife, [00:05:00] Amanda,

and I'd be like, Hey guys, what's up? Oh, Craig's, sorry. We're just driving through the Caribbean right now. Can we call you? Actually, let's stay on and talk. So I have to sit there and talk to them while they're driving through these exotic places all the time. Hey, I'going tona be in New York.

You wanna meet? Oh, well, we're going to be in Miami.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, sorry. I'm on a dune buggy in Mozambique right

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah. Craig just has the worst timing. That's, that's, that's actually the

moral of it. He said, yeah. That's true, that's true.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, most mb

Tom Murtaugh: How did you know? Were you following my itinerary?

Matt Amundson: I mean,

Craig Rosenberg: um, yeah, that, that was actually pretty good, Matt,

the Mozambique example. Yeah. I appreciate you see your, let's snap Matt out of it

Matt Amundson: No, the vibes are immaculate on this pod. Well, let's do it.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, oh, I know. Murtaugh

was gonna be the you guys back in.

by the way. We've been trying to, we've been trying to get so, so transaction audience. This is Tom Murtaugh. He's the great, he's one of the greatest dudes I knew I had to be careful 'cause I said, you're the greatest dude.

I [00:06:00] know. Matt would be like, what the fuck? Sam knows. He's like in the top 30, but not like in the top five. But like,

yeah, Matt, Matt would've been like,

what the hell, dude? I

thought I was the greatest

Matt Amundson: I was, I was snubbed by Craig once at a live event. geez. hard.

Tom Murtaugh: this is a good story.

Matt Amundson: So hard. All right. He. I like, I saw Craig and I was like, Hey Craig. And he was like, Hey, Matt. And like acknowledged my presence. I was like, okay, cool. That was good. And then Ralph Barsy shows up and Ralph's like, oh hey Craig. And Craig goes up to him and gives him the most genuine embrace of friendship, of respect, of admiration. And I was like,

the hell is He like, he

Tom Murtaugh: like, he like held his face and looked him in the eye

and was like, I missed you. they did the back off and they held each other's shoulders

Matt Amundson: for a

Tom Murtaugh: One of those, yeah.

Matt Amundson: and so

I

Tom Murtaugh: and just locked eyes.

Matt Amundson: I was so snubbed that [00:07:00] I was doing a renewal, uh, with Topo and I had it written into the contract that at the next Topo Summit he had to, uh, publicly embrace me and shout out. Matt is my brother, and not from another mother, but my actual biological brother. And

Tom Murtaugh: I love it. it. made, it, made it through legal, made it through red lines. It's

Matt Amundson: It it, it.

did, although it came back to Biden his ass when they got acquired by Gartner.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh yeah,

Tom Murtaugh: They're doing their diligence, their legal diligence. They're like, I don't think we can under this. Like this doesn't

work. This contracts null and void.

Craig Rosenberg: They are serious people at Gartner and they get

that contract and they're like, Hey, we just wanna follow up on this. And basically what they're, they're serious about you delivering everything you have in a contract. Right? Which it, it's respectable. It's awesome. That piece got brought up and Alber wanted to kill me. Uh, the other thing is, I'm trying [00:08:00] to remember how. Because I, I think I sat down after delivering, uh, said Embrace of Ralph, and then I think you texted me and said, what's up with the warm embrace of for Ralph? And I'm like, what the hell?

What

happened?

So I apologize. Yeah.

But you wrote it into a contract that almost blew up a multimillion dollar deal, but that, you know, Hey man, let's, let's go, let's

go. you get, Craig. That's what you get for not giving Matt the warm embrace that he needed. It would've never happened.

But seriously, I would give, well, actually, so if I had to rank Amanda and Tom, Amanda, one, Tom, two,

Tom Murtaugh: Oh, by far, definitely I would, I would She's amazing. I, don't even

ahead of me

Craig Rosenberg: I

wanna,

Matt Amundson: with you there.

Tom Murtaugh: Oh, yeah. No, she's great. Tom's great too, except he hates beats.

Matt Amundson: Oh,

Tom Murtaugh: I do. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I've done what I can. I, I've sent him recipes. I take pictures of it in the, uh, grocery aisle. I, I cannot [00:09:00] interest him in

beets.

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah. He's Do you eat beets, Matt?

Matt Amundson: Uh, drink be juice.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. It's good for you.

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it does not taste good, but has Good.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah,

it can get dirty. It can get dirty. It's good for you. Okay, so we got two parts of the show, Tom. So this is going to be, this is going to be fun. So one is we ask you to tell us your favorite Go-To-Market, uh, story. Um, and if you have more knowing you, there could be it's okay or, and, um, but let's start with one.

And

if if you want to keep going, you can add more. And then two is, uh, like what are the. You know, one to three things in Go-To-Market that you're seeing working in today's

environment with, uh, um, it's, it's, it's things are changing out there. So we'd love to hear kind of what you're seeing working. So the first one is the story.

Uh, we already started with the Ralph Barsy Warm and Brace story, which was Matt's, and now we'd love to hear, uh, from you. So, [00:10:00] microphone. Oh, ladies and gentlemen, Tom Murtaugh.

How's That thanks Craig.

good?

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Tom Murtaugh: The cold open. I love it. Um, you know, I wanted, I wanna tell a story, um, from COVID, uh, if everybody can put themselves back into. June of 2020.

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Tom Murtaugh: where they,

Matt Amundson: I do. I know exactly where I was.

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah,

Matt Amundson: where, I was sitting

Tom Murtaugh: you're sitting. Yeah, Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, that's true.

Tom Murtaugh: You were in the same spot probably there for, Yeah. Yeah. I was hun I was hunkered down in my New York 600 square foot New York apartment. Um. I think I was on like, probably day, what, like 60 some or something? You know, not really going out much. Uh, epicenter of everything. We're closing Q2. Um, and it was just a disaster, right?

Like QI was working at a, a data enterprise, uh, SaaS, uh, company Q1 was an absolute disaster. Uh, Q2 wasn't [00:11:00] shaping up to be, to be much better. Um, and. I guess this is really about the whole month of June and, um, I worked with a really great CRO, uh, named Philip Cardi. He's retired now and he was at Mongo. He was at Good Data.

We were at Collibra at the, during the time, so just Killer guy came up, uh, with success, uh, through, uh, SuccessFactors, SAP SuccessFactors.

Um, and we had to, we had to do something, um, and we had to get deal control. Back. And that was really the focus of ev of everything honestly, during June.

And we gave the board a range of where we're going, of where we're going to be, uh, well below what the beginning of the, of, uh, the forecast was. And, um, it just, it was feeling like a complete slog. And then I do remember it, and I know this is going to sound a little old school, and we can talk about all fun AI stuff here in a bit.

But I think it's really relevant because we have a lot of enter enterprise SaaS [00:12:00] companies in our, uh, in our portfolio. And, you know, we're pushing people because obviously I think everybody's experiencing, we're just not, we're just not seeing the top line growth. Right. And I think everybody's just not seeing the top line growth, cloud of judgment every, every freaking week in every freaking quarter.

It's like it's just not there. It's just not back yet. But we are seeing it in certain companies that we have. And I'm trying to think through what is, as we're looking at some of these companies. What is the difference there? And the difference really is top down, tops down involvement and tops down focus on deal control on landing the plane in a lot of these enterprise deals.

And what, what we saw honestly with Philip, uh, and myself kind of being stuck in rooms. Like, you know, in our, in our offices not really being distracted by all this other bullshit that usually happens during a freaking, you know, quarter of having to go to dumb forecast meetings and run around the office or go travel somewhere and burn however many hours on a plane.

All of a sudden we were able to actually get back [00:13:00] into the deals, like big time into the deals with the sales leaders going through reviewing like the joint execution plans, and I know this sounds, again, a little bit old school, but reviewing this, getting through to the, getting through to the sellers.

Do you actually know the detailed next step of what's going to happen? Do you know exactly what's going to happen? And through that June, we, we kind of, that's when we realized, shit, this is kind of the new world and this is what we need to do. And people lost a little bit of that also, because they're not next to people.

They're kind of in their own element. They're everybody's freaking out about existential things. Right? Um, so anyway. We were able to actually come in well above, uh, well above the range that we, that we had and what happened at that point. And there was some, definitely some macro pieces from that. But the, the, the crux of it is fo focusing on that deal control landing those big enterprise deals, helping people understand really what those tactics are, especially in late stage [00:14:00] deals.

It not just worked for Q2, but it started instilling that through Q through. The rest of, of 2020. And we actually made our way out of that in a, in a pretty, uh, in a pretty decent, pretty decent state. And I think Collibra actually came out with a really huge valuation a couple quarters later. And I think.

Getting back to that deal control. Uh, and that focus was one of the biggest, uh, one of the biggest reasons why, and I'll never forget, and, and this, the reason I think about the story a lot is because again, it harken, right? Right now, I think it, I harken back to that moment a lot. But do I remember that freaking Q2, ending that Q2 at midnight?

On the phone with Philip. We were on, I think for like four or five hours straight on a Zoom. Uh, and just, you know, watching everything actually come in. It was, and I think it was, I could be wrong, somebody will look at a calendar and call me out on it, but I think like the 4th of July was like, right, like, it was like a weekend and it was like parley the 4th of July.

It was [00:15:00] the. Even though I was by myself, it was like the best 4th of July ever had after coming like a solid Q2 off of a really garbage Q1. Uh, so anyway, sorry if that was a bit rambly, but, uh, I

Matt Amundson: that was a good story. That was a

really good

Craig Rosenberg: I have comments. I have commentary on

that. Because

you should, well, you shouldn't. You actually shouldn't. Like I know you're on the show and we like modern stuff, but actually that is modern because people don't understand that like deal control is actually what. Uh, well top down management of deals is we cannot lose that.

There are these uniquely human parts

of the Go-To-Market that

cannot go away

Tom Murtaugh: going to be disrupted by ai. You're not going to get an ai, you know, person helping you actually figure out how to manage and navigate a human relationship with

Matt Amundson: no.

Tom Murtaugh: a, buyer or, or whoever. So,

Craig Rosenberg: Right. You'll get, you'll probably get [00:16:00] better data so

that you don't have to spend all your time doing all of that, because like it's the most, it's the hardest thing on managing sales for years has been like, who? Are you talking? When did you talk?

Like, we have to go get all of this data. We spend 45 minutes going through the minutiae of the deal before we could talk about how we win the deal. That there's a really important part of that deal control thing, which is I even for years at topo, you know, sitting through forecast calls and they're just weather reports

and that's not what you're

supposed to do.

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: You have to get in there and understand what's happening Yes. And figure out how to win.

And the boss needs to, to, to, to run that meeting. Like, well, how the fuck do we win? And what do we need to do to bring the deal over the finish line? And I would actually say, Tom, like we have a buddy, Neil Harrington, uh uh, Matt and I, he does that in corporate. [00:17:00] $60,000 deal because he's like, look, you got all these Zer sellers who don't even know

how to, we we're, they're

learning how to run a

deal.

Tom Murtaugh: itself.

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: And so like, I actually think. That's modern what you're

saying. It's all, you know, it, it's it, it is old school, but it is a requirement, especially now with win rates. We are, I brought it up last hour, we did data capture on the win rates are, you know, even selling ai actually you're going to get faster deal cycles, but short, uh, lower win rates and the win rate problem is still happening. And like, but deal control is this. Is in like how you win the deal. That is like, it's always been important. It cannot even be, I, I cannot even say enough about how important it is now. So I

Tom Murtaugh: Well, and itgoing tonna be, let, let me, let me, let me actually probably listen into something that's, that is, that is modern. It's going to become even more important as AI starts [00:18:00] taking over. Um, a lot because there's going to be a lot of expectations from sales reps. I was just speaking with a vendor yesterday who's, you know, building a really awesome kind of agentic, full agentic Go-To-Market stack, and they're like, you're going to be able to, you're going to take a hundred people on a Go-To-Market team down to 10 and you know, quotas are going to go up three X and people are going to hit it.

And, and I'm like, yes. In a perfect world that's going to happen. Yeah. That, that will happen. But when you give all this time back. Sellers. Right? And we always used to run into this when I, when I was a consultant, you give time back and you always kind of like take a haircut off of it because, you know, part of it's going to be going to, you know, the golf, you know, the golf course or whatever.

Are sellers actually going to know what to do with that time back and how to actually get better engagement with, with their buyers, with their prospects, and how to use that time, you know? Or is it just going to be wasted time where people aren't actually going to use it? For improving their, [00:19:00] their deals or their deal control, or is it just going to go away?

Craig Rosenberg: I think that's dead on. Um, I actually, um. This is unfortunate, but, um, you know, by Scott Alro, who he did topo with, like, uh, you know, he ran, uh, like rigorous, uh, you know, uh, we, you know, forecast, deal control meetings, whatever you wanna call

him, uh, and uh. It, it wasn't meant to be me.

We tried our best not to be old Oracle guys. Um, and, but like, it was hard because, um, nobody's really well trained on

this. And, uh.

Tom Murtaugh: right. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, and our deal sizes kept going up and the complexity kept going up even when we had younger sales reps. So I think his daughter was like, uh, met one of our old sales reps and, oh, no, no, his, okay. This guy was interviewing somewhere [00:20:00] and uh, they were doing the reference call and. and. she said the woman doing the reference call was like, yeah, and he, he mentioned that, uh, oftentimes sales reps would cry during the forecast meeting. I just want, the reason I'm bringing this up is because dude. The guy who said that in the interview, I know that was you were the only one who cried and it was because honestly, I know this, I know who it was.

It was him. He tried to pretend that everyone was crying. It was him because he had the

worst.

Worst deal updates I've ever seen. And he never got better at 'em.

And I'm sorry. Like I actually asked every rep, Hey bro, did you ever cry? And like the good, the good ones, they love it. The good ones

love it. They come out of there with a plan. The bad ones, they cry anyway. I

don't want anybody to cry the bad one cries.

Yeah. anyway, I know it's you, bro. Okay. [00:21:00] So, uh, let's, uh,

Marker
---

Craig Rosenberg: let's parlay that into, um, other things that you think, um, you know, are the, you know, effective things that you need to do to win today. And it's hard, as you said, you know,

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: hard right now.

Tom Murtaugh: No, it's hard. I Hard. it's a, it's a slog out there. one of the key things that we're working on with a lot of our portfolio companies. And this, again, back to the basics. And I really think the for, for Go-To-Market, for Go-To-Market pieces, it's some of the most basic stuff is understanding what are the, what are the key activities that are actually going to drive outcomes.

Right. And again, I know it's like freaking brutally basic shit, but you can, I can ask all of our, like, you know, I would say if you would poll a hundred Go-To-Market leaders, 30% might be able to tell you exactly. Oh, it's meetings with. You know, somebody that's VP level and above with this discussion point, or this happens during this, but I don't think many people can actually tell you [00:22:00] what that is.

Like, do you know how many dollars you're going to get if you add 10 more meetings, uh, or 10 more whatever activities? To your sales reps, uh, docket every week, no one can tell you. Oh, yeah, I know definitively what that is. And I think doing analysis, and especially in the age of ai, you have all this data now you're collecting all this data, you're collecting call data, you're collecting what the topics are that they're talking about.

You can take that and you can actually go figure out and do some freaking correlation analysis even with, uh, 10, 15 reps and you can figure out exactly what is going to be driving. your Business and what those best reps are doing. 'cause there's always, even if you're not doing training or enablement, there's, there's always going to be those three, four natural athletes in your team that figure it out and you figure out what they're doing and you go replicate that across the rest of the sales team.

Or you figure out a way to turn that into a freaking what, you know, whatever, some type of, uh, you know. Yeah, put it in an LLM so that they, people can, can get that to coach [00:23:00] them. You know, there, there's so many simple things, but getting back to what is that freaking input that drives the output critical.

And it's different for every company. It's

Matt Amundson: Sure.

Tom Murtaugh: going to be slightly different.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. I mean, you're hitting on something that like, has become like one of our main topics here over the course of the last couple shows, which is like if you, if you haven't figured out what works, AI is not going to step in and figure

it out for you.

You've gotta figure it out yourself, and you've gotta think about how AI is going to go scale.

Either

that behavior that you

know, that, that, that engagement, whatever it is, those like key moments that actually turn prospects into customers. That's where the money is. And I think so many people are just like, well, I'm going to use AI to solve my problem, but they don't

Tom Murtaugh: I'm jusgoing tona throw to begin. AI Yeah, but, but it's a little different though. I didn't think you were going to say that, Matt,

Craig Rosenberg: so you surprised me.

Well, because,

Matt Amundson: all these years.

Craig Rosenberg: but, but, but with ai you [00:24:00] can, it is much, it, you can have a deeper analysis of what is working. Is that not true?

Tom Murtaugh: I think you, I think it can be, it's easier to do the analysis and to get the, and to, and probably figure out what it is that's working. But I think a lot of the promises of what's out there is like, Hey, just get this, get this agentic tool and your seller's productivity is going to go up 50%. And you're like, yeah. No, I agree with that. Yeah.

just turns into a freaking science experiment of nothingness.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, and I will say on the

experiment front, from a marketing perspective, AI definitely facilitates experimentation at a much larger scale than what most marketers are used to. So if we're talking about selling today, but like, you know, if.

If, if I was talking to a marketer, I'd be saying, you know, one of the things is like, Hey, you may not know the answer, but you probably got some hunches.

And if you wanna go test that, there's AI

tooling out there today that will go run those experiments for you very, very rapidly.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, but the, I had, you've made me [00:25:00] think of this one. Uh, so, uh. His name's Jeff Gory. He was at Code Science and he had figured out this is pre ai. Just by working with reps and you know, figuring out, you know, the guys who you know win the most deals, they figured out that they literally had a 75% close rate if the rep was on a text basis with the key deciding

executive. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. And so what did he do with it? He said, uh, he on that first call, if it went well. He, the reps had plays. I don't remember what it was. So this isn't perfect, but it was some extent of, great. Okay, so let's do the follow up. You know, what I found works great is if I could, you know, I'll give, uh, I'll give you my mobile.

If you give me my, uh, yours, I will text you beforehand and make sure you know, uh, [00:26:00] you know, you get to the meeting. I'm making this up. Let's do it right now. They would do it on the call trade. Text to get that going. And then, you know, just to get that because the bad reps were like, well, I don't have his mobile or her mobile.

It's like,

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: Right? Um, and the good ones were getting it out of the gate and they were building a text relationship that that is the kind of

activity data where, you know, you can, um, really see that. So I actually, I think that's a, that's an awesome

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, most people can't say it, and I think many people revert. Back to their previous experience on what they think is the right thing. Right, that, is that a fair statement? Or they just don't know and they don't really hone in on that

Tom Murtaugh: What do you well, like, you know, like an can't say, like, nobody can say it. I would say like, I using my numbers before, 70% of the population probably can't say it empirically. This is, this is what drives it. They might say, Hey, I know, I think, I know that this is what it is, but is it [00:27:00] because we've done studies with companies where we've looked at the things that they thought were working, and you know, the best ones are, yeah, there's a moderate impact, but this is actually a bigger driver.

And then the worst ones that we've seen is that's actually having a detrimental effect. Doing that activity is actually having a detrimental effect to your sales. Um, and that, you know, you, you, you can see that, um, in a bunch of different circumstances, sometimes, especially around like renewals or upsells, you know, you do certain reviews with cer of certain things and it just doesn't hit the mark.

And then it actually, you know, sours a relationship or the perception of the software or whatever. And so there's, there's these plays that people have been running for years. That they've never really, that they've just ported with them from place to place and they've never actually tested it to see if it actually, if it actually is Yeah, yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: I love that. All right, so two incredibly. Um, actionable pieces [00:28:00] already. Tom, one from your story and one from now. What else you got for

Matt Amundson: yeah. What else he got?

Tom Murtaugh: Okay, my last one, again, I feel like I'm bringing you, you guys set me up now. I'm feeling all self-conscious about old school stuff, but I, I still, I still

Craig Rosenberg: it's great. If it works, we want it.

Tom Murtaugh: it's, basic stuff. Um, so again, I polled a group of, of Go-To-Market leaders, 50 50 Go-To-Market leaders. I asked them who is training their first line sales managers.

And again, these are more like scale up. How many people do you think raise their, raise their hand?

Craig Rosenberg: None.

Tom Murtaugh: They're close. One, one person. Outta 50. Raise, raise their hand. But I, but, but this, and I think this really brings back kind of my other two points, right? Deal control, understanding activity. What are your leading indicators?

I think a lot of people hire sales managers and they're like, shit, we're hiring a sales manager. We're paying a ton of money for this person. We don't need to do anything. They got it under control. Um, and I think, again, best case is [00:29:00] maybe they kind of have it under control and they'll be okay. Um, but the thing is, you're not going to get any consistency across your regions or your, or your teams if you don't do that.

Um, and I think, again, in the world of AI where you're, where I think Go-To-Market, people are going to become more of an orchestrator of things and agents and, and, and, and what they're going to be doing. They're, they're, they need to have consistency about how they're actually going to be operating and pulling those levers and the people that need to deliver that, that consistency or teach them how to do that appropriately, is really going to be the first line sales manager.

And as you know, as everyone's talking about with ai, you know, manager spans of control probably are going to go from the six to eight to one to, you know, 10, 12, 20 to one. So your sales manager is be going to become incredibly, even more important than, uh, than they are today. Um, because they're going to be the ones that even with a little bit of change, are going to have a lot of leverage over a lot of people.

So I think really getting them, [00:30:00] uh, up to speed and thinking about what are, what are they doing and what do you want them to be doing is critically important and not just trying to hire great people and throwing 'em out there and just saying, they got it. We paying enough to to, to do it.

Craig Rosenberg: What, you know, I, there's a. Really important topic. I, uh, it's been around for a while, but what you're bringing up is why. So everything you've said that's OG and frankly, everything's been

OG is actually more, it's interesting 'cause it's more relevant today because we're advancing so fast on a lot of other things and we can't forget this.

So, so

Tom Murtaugh: It just becomes amplified.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. It's, it does become amplified. Um. Uh, but, um, in the case of the frontline managers, um, you know, what I found at, um, in my previous life in advisory was one, uh, many people didn't want to spend money on them, [00:31:00] uh, or resources. Um, but then the, those that did, I'm not sure they knew. What they should be doing

w with them. And so like what, like when you help, if some, if you get someone over the finish line that they're going to finally enable their frontline, uh, managers. Like what, like what kind of things do they need to get them, uh, enabled on?

Tom Murtaugh: Uh, I think the number one thing is actually effectively coaching. Sales reps, like beyond anything else, right? And we, we have a really good portfolio company that does some pretty, pretty, pretty cool stuff. Um, they take, they actually take gong recordings. They throw it into an LLM that they, that they built.

Um, uh, and it tells them, number one, what's the likelihood of the deal, uh, is going to close. And then secondly, what are the areas that the rep needs to focus on better for the next, for the next deal. Um, so it gives some pretty. Like [00:32:00] succinct and, and actionable, um, recommendations. But if that's not delivered right, and if it's not delivered in a way and it's not also co-worked on with the sales leader or this, you know, the, the manager and the rep, nothing's going to change and nothing's going to actually be fixed, uh, by doing that, so you can get all the answers and all the things that you, that you need to do, like, you don't need to be a genius anymore.

To understand exactly what needs to happen is a specific deal, but actually coaching the person to change that behavior and make them better and help them learn. Those are the areas that, you know, it's almost like, it's almost a little bit more psychology than anything. And a lot of these first line leaders, again, OG comment here, have just been promo over promoted sales reps who Yeah. great reps, but they're not really actually good managers.

Matt Amundson: I

wanna lean come me up. Uh, well, I would've headed, I definitely did cut you my bad.

Jesus Christ. oh, we real, we realize you wanna lean in because you le leaned in

Craig Rosenberg: [00:33:00] while he was still

talking. Yeah.

Tom Murtaugh: leaned in

Matt Amundson: I'm learn, I I'm Yeah. Tom's uh, uh, uh, cadence here. Like, I

was like, oh, ooh, there's an opening. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

no.

Tom Murtaugh: There's a break. Cut. Get him off. Get him.

Matt Amundson: So, so, so there's a couple things that, um, that are coming to mind for me here, especially, you know, there's, I, I saw a post on LinkedIn. I should credit the person. And tell Sam to put it in the show notes, but I can't remember who

posted it.

But, uh, it was this really, uh, I'll remember, uh, it's this really, uh, interesting post about like measuring how valuable your middle management is in sales. And one of the, like, it was like creating a dashboard for them that wasn't just revenue, but it was looking at like how well they were. Like ramping their reps and like how even like the success rate of the reps were.

Because in a lot of cases, and I think many of us have seen this firsthand, you get like these sort of sales managers that um, you know, they have two or three great [00:34:00] reps who are their top two or three great reps every quarter, and that's how they make their money. And you're like, oh yeah, I can rely on Tom because Craig and Sam always crush it for him.

Right? And

the reality is actually that's pretty bad, right?

Like. Riding your stars.

Exactly, like how do you start to cultivate and create more Craig and Sam's? I mean, God knows that there's no way to, to humanly do that, but like, uh, in a sales capacity, like are we, are we bringing up the, the line here? So that's, that, that, that's, that's one thing.

You know, and, and I know this is like, you know, a big part of your world is like, how are you seeing companies measure their mid-market sellers, like. Are we thinking about this correctly or is this like a sort of, you know, a, a, a big opportunity for organizations to sort of uplevel their revenue function?

Tom Murtaugh: So. I, I hope I'm going to answer this question right. I've actually seen this work in a really bad way. I think it's a really good idea. Um, but I've seen this create some pretty perverse incentives for sales managers. Uh, one [00:35:00] of the companies I'm at, I will not name it, we used to have a balanced participation measure for sales managers.

So it would mean that you'd need at least 70% or above of your team above quota to get a portion of your comp plan or a portion of your comp plan payout for that quota. Um, sales managers would just fire people before the end of the quarter, uh, so that they could, they, so that they can gain the number.

So I think the first thing is just making sure that it, I think looking at it's incredibly important because to your point, you know, one of the first things we do whenever we acquire companies, we look at the concentration of, of, of revenue and performance, and it's usually the completely skewed, you know, literally 80 20 rule.

20% of reps are generating 80% of performance, which you want to create too much concentration risk. Um, so do focusing on this and ensuring that you're actually having that is good, but you need to make sure the incentives are aligned with sales managers. When you start putting dollars behind it, it gets a little, a little, it can get a little perverse.

And then I think the, the, the crux of it is then [00:36:00] when you see those people, when you're stack ranking those people, what are the tactics that you're giving your sales managers to actually pull that, pull those people up, right? It's like, what, what, what are, what do they need to do? And what has worked in the past?

To coach this person or to, to, to provide the right coaching, to bring them up and then also give them, Hey, this is, this is, this is the, the threshold or this is the, the, the, the sib that you need to put people through. And if they go, if they don't make it through, they're done. And, you know, and if you, you see the opposite where people will hang on to people emotionally, uh, for way too long.

Uh, because sellers are great sellers and they sell internally even more than they do externally. Um, so I think just to sum it up. Figuring out what the coaching is for those mid performers and figuring out when you need to cut, you know, cut bait on those low performers, I think is critical. Um, but looking at if you don't, if you don't understand that and you don't know who is mid and who's low, that's another thing.

Can I say one more element? I'm sorry. One more thing. I'm sorry for ram rambling here.

This, this is, this is [00:37:00] also when you have long sales cycles, this is where understanding the activities that matter is even more important too,

right? Because seller, because a lot of sales managers will just look purely at production of a rep.

And you can and stack rank somebody based just purely on that, on production. And you can have a lot of false positives and a lot of false negatives there. False positives. Somebody just fucking gets a bluebird or they have a warm territory, boom, they're at the top. You don't touch 'em, you don't do shit.

You have somebody who hasn't sold anything 'cause they're in greenfield territory and they are, but they're doing all the right stuff. They're, they're going to kill it in 12 months. But you don't understand that they are. I think giving people that visibility of what good looks like, both leading and lagging is really important Also.

Matt Amundson: Yep. Love that.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, I will. Um, I. Couple things on the, uh, the frontline manager, uh, uh, issue. And then we can, uh, you know, we talk about whatever, I guess Matt wants to talk

Matt Amundson: Oh [00:38:00] gee. Oh, come on.

Craig Rosenberg: They what?

Tom Murtaugh: I just wish you guys were in person. I just wanna see an, I wanna see a warm embrace

Craig Rosenberg: Oh,

Tom Murtaugh: time is going to be I, I'm going to put that, I'm going to put that in the, in my contract that

Matt Amundson: you should.

Tom Murtaugh: to be next to each other for this next session.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

I'm just out that I, uh, Tom, I am just out that window on the other. I really am.

My, my house is just outside that window.

Tom Murtaugh: really? So like, I, I, if I, like, if we zoomed in, if we had like infinite zoom, like we, it's right there. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, so there's a couple things. So one is, uh, for, we talked about deal control and, uh, um. Opportunity, let's just call it for now, like sort of opportunity review, deal review, forecast meetings. You know, you actually have to have everyone on the same page on how we look at deals.

And often when you scale, you lose that immediately.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: And, [00:39:00] um, and that's, there's all these hidden things. So like, I think the coaching one is the most important because nobody knows how to

coach. I mean, like, and so that, that's always going to be good. But in terms of gathering everyone on the same page, like that's one of the ones that, you know, it, it's, it's bad, right?

And, um, you know, training them on how to, you know, how do we wanna run a meeting? How do we want, I remember years when Clary was first coming up talking to Andy, the CEO, and he's like, look, we thought, well, you know, we're going to put this out. It's going to have AI and all this stuff. But what we learned that most CROs wanted was just to codify how we look at deals

and how, and how to run a deal meeting.

And like we had, uh, remember at Topo we were brought in of coming in. Now there. Um, like way public, way billion dollar, like beyond anything. But at the time, you know, they had just scaled and they had nine [00:40:00] regions, nine managers, and the chief of staff, rev ops guy said, I need you to come in and find out, you know, uh, what's happening from a forecast perspective and how these guys are looking at deals, et cetera. We ca, you know, so our analysts went out there and they talked to 'em. They came back and they said, well, here's what you need to know. You are basically running nine different selling methodologies in nine different, there's, there's a MEDDPICC group, there's a challenger group, and they all, and these were veteran, uh, you know, they hired frontline coaches from the industry who would come in and say, well, we're a med pick region.

Or we're

a challenger region. Yeah. And it's like they just weren't on the same page. So that's like all of this stuff, like to run an effective team, it's like, like Matt's a football coach. Like you can, you know, if the offensive coordinator's not. You know that well, that's sort of one-to-one. They're like connected, but like the wide receiver coach is doing [00:41:00] whatever he or she ever he did before and is not supporting the fact that the offensive coordinator wants to do this.

These things break

down like you're not a unit. And so like that's one that I, I've seen over the years for sure. And that's like. You know, so like the co you know, how do they coach, how do they talk through deals? Because otherwise, you know, you have this thing one where everyone's doing everything different, but also you're not communicating.

So when that regional guy comes back and talks to the VP of North America, it's like, uh, you. You guys are talking about two different things, whether you know it or

not, and, and, and that that's a really, that's another sort of really painful thing, uh, that's part of that, you know, synthesizing on the front line.

So it goes back to your deal control thing, which is like, it's one thing when you've got the person at the top, which. Help us. I hope they are going to help everyone close deals, but if the frontline coaches are doing everything [00:42:00] different, then that, you know, that just doesn't work. And then I will tie it back again to the key activities, which is if we can't leverage in the tribal knowledge of things happening across the organization to infuse it into your region, you know, then what are we doing here?

You know, so, um, yeah, I, I, anyway, I just, I, that was, that was a, a commentary there. Let me ask you this. I have a theory,

Matt Amundson: Oh.

Craig Rosenberg: um, did the, did the sales enablement movement and we had it, we had tons of spending on automation. We hired groups. I think it didn't work.

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah, I mean, do you Okay. Alright,

Craig Rosenberg: move on. Yeah. Next one. Alright, let's keep going,

Tom Murtaugh: Do you want me to just, yeah, I could give an answer. I think it didn't work. I agree with you. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. There's a speed round. Yeah.

Matt Amundson: Craig Craig thi this is fantastic. So this was like one of the things when [00:43:00] we were thinking about building the transaction, we're like, oh, you know, what are the topics that we wanna discuss? And I kept saying like, can we like do a retrospective on things like.

You know,

you know, like sales enablement software

five years later we sure it's good.

Did it work? Like were they, you know, like what do these things mean five years down the road? Like these categories that emerge and they're super hot, right? Like, and then, you know, I was in a category called predictive analytics and. That category just imploded. There was

a ton of money that got, uh, or a ton of capital that got deployed into these businesses, and by and large, like anybody who had any level of success pivoted into something else, right?

They're like, oh, we can use this like data and machine learning for something other than what we tried to do it for. So like, these are the things that I'm really curious and like, um, so Craig, thank you for bringing up the topic, especially with an expert like Tom.

Craig Rosenberg: Well, Tom. [00:44:00] Yeah. And thanks Tom for digging into my question. I really appreciate the

Tom Murtaugh: There's nothing.

There's nothing. There's nothing, more that needs to be said. Yes, it didn't work. Thank you for, thank you for kicking off this movement, Craig. I hope you glad you made a lot of money on it.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, well, but why, why didn't it work?

Tom Murtaugh: Um, I, I'll tell you, and I, I actually think there's something that's, that I'm starting to see work now and a trend that's, that's coming up, uh, across a couple of our different port cos. Um, I think. It's really hard for salespeople, um, to trust people who haven't carried a bag before. This is my humble, this is my humble opinion of it, and I was a sales consultant, a Go-To-Market consultant at the Alexander Group for years, and I was a seller before that.

And when I'd walk into a room with a bunch of other consultants, it was when I said that I was a seller. All of a sudden, you see the shoulders come down. People like we, we will listen to you. And I think what happened with enablement was a lot [00:45:00] of people that were in like training and learning and development, or like former teachers got into this and, and really turned it into almost like a classroom exercise.

And I'm making, I'm going to make some broad, stereotypical, um, uh, uh, assumptions here. Most salespeople hate. School and classrooms and that type of, that type of shit. And it turned into like a college course and it almost became like an organ rejection. Um, what we're, what I'm seeing now is like this emerging sales excellence role that is like a former sales leader, uh, that comes in and kind of takes over and replaces enable, it's probably going to, it's replacing enablement in a lot of places.

And they actually get out there. They ride along with the sell sales reps. They're almost like a, a, a, a first line sales manager that is focused purely on coaching and helping sales reps do better. And it's kind of a one-on-one with some scalability around it. Um, and I think that has so much more positive effect and help, uh, for sellers because it's [00:46:00] somebody who speaks their language, who's been in their shoes, who's know, knows what's going on, who isn't threatening because it's not their manager doing this.

Um. Uh, and it takes the defenses down and it actually gets them to learn. Um, so I think the, that's my, that's my thesis. Opinions. that I I buy that

Matt Amundson: I buy that

Tom Murtaugh: Okay.

Matt Amundson: Craig, you can answer whether or not you buy it.

Craig Rosenberg: I buy it.

No, no.

I.

I think, I think that's right. I think, uh uh. I think that's right on the human side. On on the tech side though. Like why didn't let, let me, let me throw this retrospective

on behalf Oh, well, let's

Why, why? No, no, no, no. You, that was a good, I'm, I'm adding, uh, this is an and not a but Tom. Um, but why didn't sales content management work? Like, why did, like it did for a minute, but now it's

Tom Murtaugh: You know, [00:47:00] you know, you know what's more powerful than that is people like listening to Gong calls.

Honestly, you know, people actually seeing the content in use by a rep. Like, uh, you know, we had a rep one time at my last company at Big, ID join. First thing she did was she like beeline to like the top seller and was like, tell me what you're doing.

What are you doing? I wanna make as much money as you're making. And she literally became like the number two rep because she did that on like the first day and went to Joe and, and, and picked his brain for an hour and he was happy to give it up. People have all this now in Gong calls where they can watch what a seller does, what the top sellers do, and emulate it.

And you're not going to get that from, from seeing like content and, and having a walkthrough presentation by a former teacher.

Uh, you know, on a screen

Craig Rosenberg: Matt.

Tom Murtaugh: the most powerful enablement tool or any type of conversational analytics tool is the most powerful en enablement tool that's out there right now, and people just need to use [00:48:00] it.

Craig Rosenberg: I think that's, I think that's right.

Matt Amundson: That's so super true, right? Because like, I think, uh, to Tom's point, like people don't like sellers. I, I'm not saying all sellers were athletes, but sellers like they, they, they work well in the sort of athlete mold. Like they'll watch game film,

they'll diagram stuff out, but they don't wanna sit in a classroom and they don't want to take tests.

And I think the thing

that like a lot of the, that sales tech for enablement. Miss the mark on is like, it was just like, oh, well we just do training and then we measure how well they've retained that knowledge. And the reality is, is like they will retain the knowledge as much as it takes for them to get through whatever tests they need to get through so

that they can go on and do whatever it is that they really want to do. Like most salespeople would just say. Tell me what I need to get the deal done. Don't tell me all this stuff that I have to do. Right? Like, who do I need to partner with? Like, what is our top seller

doing in situations like this? And I think the one [00:49:00] thing that's really true, and this brings us all the way back to the start of the conversation, is like, people I think have taken for granted, the sellers that grew up through ERP in a lot of cases don't have a ton of business acumen, right?

Like

it's, it's like.

Tom Murtaugh: Matt. Amen. Yeah.

Matt Amundson: You can teach them how to run a, uh, do a sales presentation, how to deliver a

sales deck. You can teach them like entry and exit criteria, but like they don't exactly know all the things that they like. They can be an active listener, but they don't know how to synthesize that into whatever the

next stage of the selling process needs to be.

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah. Or how to speak to a, how to speak to a buyer in a way that's actually compelling for them that brings it, that brings it back to what their needs are. How to speak in a language that's like sellers didn't wanna get into corporate America. They just wanted to go be, kind of make money and go do this stuff, but they have to figure out how to communicate with their buyers.

Um, and you're not going to learn that a [00:50:00] lesson. You're going to learn that by watching somebody do it. It's like you need to be mentored through that. Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: Okay, so the, the breakdown on the sales enablement side was we just did it wrong.

We put money into it, we recognized it was an issue and we just did it wrong.

Tom Murtaugh: I think you, you, you, you people took, and I'm sorry you, I didn't mean you, Craig, it wasn't you. I'm sorry. Uh, yeah, yeah, But people, everybody took kind of like things that worked maybe in other ways of enabling, of, of learning and development and just tried to apply it to sales and it just doesn't, it doesn't work.

And would it work for any, can we, can we step back for a minute? Like, pretend we're not Go-To-Market specialists. Does that really work for any. Function.

Matt Amundson: No,

I'm sure. Whatever, whatever training or certification anybody has to do in any business

ever, they usually do it on the last day that it's due because

nobody fucking likes doing it.

Tom Murtaugh: it's the worst thing in the world. You're like, oh my God, I gotta have [00:51:00] my, uh, tech compliance training. Fuck Christ. Like, this is horrible. So why would we think that people would actually actively wanna do Yep. You know, it, it, it, it's. It. It just isn't reaching people at any level.

Craig Rosenberg: All right, we have one minute left. I wanted to throw this one thing to Tom

about Tom. Now Tom's in a different role similar to mine now, but like one, one of the things I would say when Tom was at Big ID was like. The, you know, you have like, and the CRO there is awesome, right mark,

but like you could have put anybody on the top because Tom had created a platform for how they sell and all the machinery was running that, you know, that is what chief of staff. Uh, sales strategy. Rev ops is supposed to be where these [00:52:00] folks are building this stable, uh, machinery where, you know, 'cause the CR o's going to get blasted every two years. And what happens is, uh, everything falls up. It's like. Uh, it's like a wasteland and you gotta build everything up. Where in actuality, real scale has come from this layer of folks like Tom, where every, the trains are all running on time.

If we want to do strategic redirect on approach or tear, those things can be done immediate, like, because we

have the infrastructure to do that. And so that's a compliment to Tom, but also ke like, uh, Michael Hargis, you know, he's a, uh. I don't, I'm not even sure what his role, senior VP now rev ops or strategy, like he was at a company for 10 years and they had six CROs and they never misnumber because like he had created this platform and like, that's what we're really looking for here.

'cause I, I think like, uh. [00:53:00] I, I, it, I'm just not sure there's a lot of you out there. Right. But like, that was always something that I was like, we, that hire that person is almost as important as

Tom Murtaugh: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: else in the revenue organization. So compliment to you, but also I'm right, right?

Tom Murtaugh: Yes.

Craig Rosenberg: Or no? Oh, well there it is. Oh yeah.

Speed

Tom Murtaugh: very, very, yeah. Very, very kind words. No, I, I, I totally agree. I think, um, if you don't have somebody focusing on that, because that it, how I always thought about it with, you know, with any C, but let's use Mark as an example. I'm like. I need to be ensuring that I am getting him as much time as possible in front of customers or with the reps or whatever's going to bring value.

And the last thing he needs to worry about is, you know, sales stages. What's our tech stack look like? You know, are we, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And when you get that moving, it takes all that stress off that top, that top person [00:54:00] to go just do what they're. Best at and what they need to be, what they, they need to do.

Um, and I see it now with companies that don't have this role, and to your point, uh, you change out a CRO and then everything, like, it's almost like it was held together with like bubblegum and, and popsicle sticks, uh, because it was all built around this person and this personality. And then you pop 'em out and everything just collapses.

And then the next person needs to come in and rebuild again, and then they leave and then just collapses again. If you don't have that continuity and that thoughtfulness and somebody that can actually think about what does this need to look like, not just today, but you know, for the next one or two growth stages.

That's, that's really important. And, and I think finding the, the revenue

ops, sorry, one other thing. Can I say one more thing?

I think the revenue ops function, I know we're late here, the revenue ops function, it's a hard one to have somebody step up into the role. Like I was mentored under a really good rev ops leader who ran revenue operations at a DP.

He's now the operating partner at Insight [00:55:00] Partners, uh, Pablo Dominguez. Um, and I learned under him, um, and if I didn't have that time with Pablo, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have been effective in my job. And I think when people hire Rev ops sometimes, they're like, oh, we'll just take this person that was a legacy Salesforce administrator and we're going to promote 'em because they're really great.

We really like them. They always deliver everything on time. And they can do this role. It's not, that's not the right hire. You need to hire somebody who's been there before, who's done it, who's been through, through it, regardless of your growth stage, so that they know what, what needs to happen to get to the next growth stage and to get to the next level.

That's my humble pitch for the day

Matt Amundson: Boom.

Craig Rosenberg: There we go.

that was a, that perfect ending. That was awesome. Uh, great show Tom. Uh, Matt, is your faith and humanity

Matt Amundson: Yes,

Craig Rosenberg: Okay, Jesus.

good. Good. That,

uh.

Matt Amundson: Also like just meeting Tom is awesome, uh, because

Craig has talked about, uh, you and I've watched your presentation before, but I've, I've [00:56:00] never got to like personally interact with you and God. Great. Yeah. He is the best. He's the best and he's

just going to stop sleeping was just great.

four weeks.

Craig Rosenberg: I know

he's not Yeah I'm going in like four weeks. He.

Tom Murtaugh: really soon.

Craig Rosenberg: But, uh, yeah. Oh, I know for a fact our next dinner in New York, I'm going to, I mean, I'm telling you, you're going to end up, you're going to wake up in Montreal. We're going off. 'cause

you're gonna want to party, dude. it, Yeah. You're going to get me to yeah. beets. It's,

Oh God. Then that, then we have a win.

Tom Murtaugh: yeah. right, cool. So everyone, that was the transaction. Great show. [00:57:00]