The Transaction | Transcript: Founder-Led GTM, Growth Bets, & Why Stories Win With Scott Albro

Founder-Led GTM, Growth Bets, & Why Stories Win With Scott Albro - Ep 058

June 24, 2025 / 47:02/S2:E58

TT - 058 - Scott Albro (Again) - Full Episode
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Scott Albro: [00:00:00] if you do not have a compelling story that resonates with your target audience, nothing else matters.

That is the magic of AI, we are marketing magic right now and we should take advantage of that.

Founders can just do things that other people can't.

The best Go-To-Market orgs right now are working closely with product to pull the product into the market, we used to talk about sales and marketing alignment. I would argue that the most important alignment thing right now is not sales and marketing alignment. It is go-To-Market product alignment.

If you're not trying to reinvent your Go-To-Market org, you need to have a look in the mirror.

Anointing a founder or the founder as like, no, you're not just product, you are the Go-To-Market founder is so powerful.

Matt Amundson: Craig, are you the number one closer?

Craig Rosenberg: No, but this, so Maria Pergolino noticed that I'm always wor wearing hats, and so she [00:01:00] brought, she went to Glengarry on Broadway and brought me the

Matt Amundson: nice.

nice.

Craig Rosenberg: sweet? And

Matt Amundson: It's high time. We do like a Maria Pergolino Super Cut. 'cause I don't think there's been an episode where we didn't mention her name,

Sam Guertin: I, I feel bad whenever I'm like tagging the, the people that are shouted out in the episodes. 'cause it's like every week I'm just tagging her.

Matt Amundson: an Anthony Kta for having good hair. He was so

Sam Guertin: Yeah.

Scott Albro: It is true. That guy has amazing hair.

Matt Amundson: Ted's still the goat though.

though.

Craig Rosenberg: The haircut analysis was amazing.

Scott Albro: Hold on. We are recording

Matt Amundson: Well, Craig, Craig [00:02:00] got fell into absolute calamity and I thought we'd need it for the breal.

bre.

Scott Albro: All

Sam Guertin: Yeah. Craig, is your keyboard gonna make it?

Craig Rosenberg: I don't think

so. Damnit.

I just don't want to tell Bob.

you know, the IT person at scale that has to support Craig

Matt Amundson: Bob is the most patient person on the planet. It's crazy.

Scott Albro: Poor

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Scott Albro: You guys should have Bob

Matt Amundson: We should.

Craig Rosenberg: you know what? We will. 'cause he's ama he could talk about anything. And also, you know, one of the things that is really funny, well, actually, maybe not funny. Sorry. I don't know why I use that, but, well, maybe my printer issues and I'm the only one with a printer.

Matt Amundson: tracks

Scott Albro: was gonna say, who

has a printer?

What do you, honestly, what do you do with a printer? I,

Craig Rosenberg: well, here's the thing, I have trouble

like it's in your background. This is a prominent part of your life. Like you. You like [00:03:00] pointed at the printer.

and it's not, it's not connecting. So I have to print elsewhere. So no, if it's a long email and I have to read it, normally I won't read it. But if I have to read it, then I print it.

Scott Albro: I worked for his CEO in the late nineties who used to print all of his e, well, he didn't, his assistant did, would print all of his emails so he would read,

Craig Rosenberg: Oh my God.

Scott Albro: yeah. Every email. Like that oh, it going? Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: no way.

Scott Albro: yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: love that. Um,

Scott Albro: That was a crazy

Matt Amundson: I, I gotta say, I don't love

Craig Rosenberg: I, I

Scott Albro: Yeah, I don't either.

Craig Rosenberg: Why?

Matt Amundson: well.

Sam Guertin: Two lines of text on a whole sheet of paper.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, yeah, no, I know. I, I, I guess that, yeah, that, that's true. That part

Matt Amundson: Craig, I'd like to Um, all right. I'd like like your directions to places

Matt Amundson: instead of

using think he

Sam Guertin: Return to MapQuest.

Matt Amundson: Mav Quest.

Scott Albro: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: know, I'm gonna just, uh, here's a shout out to printing out [00:04:00] directions. Those Google map things, man, they get me lost 32% of the time.

Matt Amundson: That tracks,

Craig Rosenberg: well first of all, I always says it's, you know, turn left and 400 feet and then you're like,

I how far is not 400 feet.

Yeah. I mean that.

So, of person who would have a good sense of 400 feet. You're

no, I definitely, I definitely don't. And like, uh, yeah, and then like most of the street signs are hidden when I really need it for directions. You can't see it. And then, then the Google Maps thing just starts spinning when I get lost, man, and the thing's trying to readjust, I have to turn it off and turn it back on.

I mean,

I believe Google, turning the voice audio thing on that might help you? It, It, actually just tells you what to do. You're like, I can't see the street signs. It's like, no, it'll just tell you when to turn. Right.

Matt Amundson: It might be better than jiggling the wire.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, [00:05:00] that's a good point. I do have to jiggle the wire quite a bit. all right, so business, business time. So we is got a record return guest. He's a guest slash host. So it's probably been four,

maybe been a guest three times and I've been

And then you hosted with Scott,

Scott Albro: I did notice you guys sent me all these prep materials and there's a list of like the best episodes to go watch to get a sense of the show, and I'm not, I'm not in the list.

Sam Guertin: Uh, that was a clerical oversight.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

we always omit a return guest.

Scott Albro: Oh, I see, I see. yeah,

yeah,

Matt Amundson: because we figured you've already watched it.

Scott Albro: yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, that's a good point actually. Sam, why'd you do that? Um, actually, the one that Alber and I, uh, hosted bar, we had Scott Barker, the dude, like, he just basically shut it all down. Right. And he is like, going into the wild.

Scott Albro: yeah,

Matt Amundson: Chris McCann style. Yeah. I love it.

it.

Craig Rosenberg: I I love [00:06:00] that guy. Love that for

him. incredible. I love that too. I can't wait to hear about that.

All right. So let's, let's start, we got, um, so Scott, do we even, well, actually, you know what, I'm gonna say this on the intro to Scott since he's, this is his fourth time on the show, the Go-To-Market founder presentation. The last, you know, obviously I talked to Scott quite a bit, but like one of the last sort of things that are, as is part of what he, um, you know, does.

You know, for, not for a living, but one of the many things that he does is, uh, you know, he's been studying, um, the founder Go-To-Market, which he has dubbed, I, I don't know if it's official, but like in, he did a presentation at the Go-To-Market summit, which was, so most of the time we gave him last keynote.

Most last keynotes have like a, what, like a 70% drop off. This one had like a 70% stay rate. Like there was very, most people stayed and they were really engaged. And the idea was around [00:07:00] this, this thing called the Go-To-Market founder, which I've been using left and right. It is, that is a great term. Are you going with it for officially or

Scott Albro: I think so. Well, yeah, I mean, I, I am, I'm still playing around with what to call it. I mean, it's definitely like a, a formal concept that I'm working on right now and helping people with, I don't know, I, I'm debating like, is it the Go-To-Market founder? Is it founder led growth? You know, like there, there are different things you could call, I kinda like the Go-To-Market founder though, because it really per, you know, it's like a person, right?

It's, and, and that's, that, that is the whole idea, right? Which we can talk about later in the show, but, um. But yeah, that, that was a great event, Craig. Thanks for putting that on. I can't tell you how many people have come up to me or reached out and said, that was just an amazing event. Reminds me of the old topo events that we used to put on that have been dearly missed for many years now.

And, uh, it, it was [00:08:00] just an awesome event. So thanks for having me.

Craig Rosenberg: for having me. Yeah, of course. By the way, I, I think I'm gonna, Matt and I tried to do something at the Rosewood when we were working together here, and they never called Laurel back, and I had to trick the guy. I had to go look up. Like an old topo email or a topo invoice or something to go get to the guy and uh, and their prices are way up, but that, that'd be fine.

so, so we revised our, big question, as you know, we're really like, we are really trying to hone in on what works right now. And so the, what we're asking guests for Scott is these days is like, you know, what are, like, we just need to know one to three things.

What are, you know, and this one could be strategy tactics, but we need as specific as possible of things that are working today in this sort of new buying environment, new selling environment, et cetera. So we'll open it up to

you and let's

Matt Amundson: And can you tell us how to do it right? Like not just [00:09:00] what's working, but how, how are these people getting to these outcomes?

Craig Rosenberg: yeah.

Scott Albro: totally. Okay. Um, was that the question or is that the setup to the, that's the question.

Matt Amundson: That is the que Yeah, Which is bad news. It's bad news for us. because like, is that a

Craig Rosenberg: I'll work on adding a, I'll work on adding a question mark at the end of

Matt Amundson: Oh fuck.

Scott Albro: Okay. Um, so I, you know, the, the big thing that I am, um, really focused on right now is, um, just the amount and pace of change that exists in Go-To-Market organizations today. And I, and, and look, I think that's just an observation, right? And, and unless you have your head in the sand, it's pretty clear that that's what's happening. Like, there's just a ton of innovation and change and, and, it's happening extremely fast. And so I think the most interesting thing for. [00:10:00] Sales and marketing executives to be thinking about for founders and CEOs to be thinking about is like, well what, what do I do, about that? Because it can be kind of overwhelming.

Like one reaction you could have is like, well, I just believe in what I do and I'm gonna keep doing what I've been doing all along. And believe me, there are a ton of people that are just doing that. That's sort of their default setting and they have a tough time breaking away from that. But the other alternative is like, well, I'm actually going to change as a result of this. Right? And, and so for me, the big question is like, well how do you do that in like a manageable way? And we were talking at the start of the show about this idea of the Go-To-Market founder. Um, I think the most important thing that we can be doing in Go-To-Market organizations today is really applying like a founder mindset to Go-To-Market.

It actually helps if you're the founder, but you don't necessarily need to be the founder. [00:11:00] You just need to be able to do things like question everything, right? Think in first principles, own stuff. And I'll give you specific examples of this, of these things in a second, but it's almost like this mindset where you're willing to like, burn everything down and build it back up better, right?

And so, um, so so, anyway, this is happening and, and what I see, um, the best organizations doing is basically empowering someone to act with this kind of founder type mindset. You know, we've, I think most of us have read this Paul Graham essay called Founder Mode. I think what most people took away from that essay is like, well, it's about like how you manage your team and how you control things and.

I think a lot of people who read Paul, they think of, they think of what he's saying, like it through the lens of like product development, like building the product and delivering the product and so forth. But you can apply that founder mode thinking [00:12:00] to the Go-To-Market org. Okay, so this is happening, um, in pockets.

I see founders doing it, founders stepping in to be the Go-To-Market founder, what we were talking about earlier. But I also see sales and marketing leadership sort of adopting this founder mindset or going into founder mode to again, question everything, tear everything down, and then rebuild it. Okay. So that's sort of the background here.

Then the question is like, well what are the things that, um, those people who go into founder mode or have that founder mindset, I. what what are they actually focused on? What are they doing? And they're doing a lot of different things. I think one of the things about taking this mindset into the Go-To-Market organizations, you can really engage in like some unconstrained thinking.

But let me, let me, just highlight a few things that I think are, are really cool that are happening. One is, I see certain organizations [00:13:00] just making a ton of go to what I would call like Go-To-Market bets maybe, um, or growth bets. Maybe like five years ago we would've called 'em like growth hacks, right?

But it's like they are in constant experimentation mode around. What can I do to essentially draw attention to my company and my product? Okay. And the leading example here for me is this company called Lovable. They're an AI tool, kind of one of these rapid development tools where you can like use natural language to say like, Hey, I want to build a langu language tutoring app, and lovable will.

Um, that's literally all you type into the chat box and lovable will essentially build you a prototype of that

app. Well, they, in the last, I think since the beginning of the year, they, they have run like, I don't know, like 30 to 40 different growth experiments

or bets that, um, they basically kind of release into the wild, [00:14:00] like, like an example of a bet that they've made.

Is, um, they built a version of lovable where you just give it your LinkedIn profile and lovable will build you a personal website that's kind of all about you. Right?

Um, another example, I mean, that's a, that's

a very, you know, like product centric

experience,

which I think helps a lot with these growth

bets. Another

example is they had, um, they had a competition

where

they, uh, competitor A was, um, like this very seasoned experience, tenured designer, developer, and they went and built, uh, an application and then they had I think an 18-year-old

student with no experience. Um, build an application using lovable, and they, they had

like 40,000 people show up.

They [00:15:00] live streamed this and had 40,000 people show up and watch this thing. And then since then, I think like several million people have watched this

thing as well.

And so the, the lesson there

isn't so much like, oh, hey, you should do a live stream of

like a competition of people

using your product.

It's just, you should be like ex, you know, just like trying these different things. Experimenting, right. Sort of like thinking that in this unconstrained way, not being afraid of failing, right. Just like constant experimentation doubling down on your wins. And so like, I don't know if the LinkedIn one worked or not.

that's not the point. Right? The point is just like constant experimentation in an effort to like attract attention your target market to your company and,

and your product. So that's like, that's like one example.

Um, I, you know, I

think of that example as like a set of tactics that you can use in the Go-To-Market organization.

So maybe the other example I [00:16:00] should give is like, is is like more strategic. Um, I spend a ton of time with my clients, like really trying to nail the story

that they're telling to

the market. Um, to me it is in, in today's economy, in today's digital environment, in a world where there's just a ton of competition for the buyer's attention, um, not only from your competitors, but just from other stuff that's out there.

Like, if you do not have a compelling story that resonates with your target audience,

nothing else matters. You,

you can be running the best, for example, the best growth experiments or growth bets in the world. It just doesn't matter unless there's this, I. Foundational story to back it up. So, um, that's another thing

I think Go-To-Market orgs are doing is they're, look, they're really spending time on like the core story or stories that they want

to tell the market.

And so, you know, if you think back to when I was still [00:17:00] like full-time startup sales and marketing, et cetera, you know, we spent all our time like writing white papers

and doing webinars and stuff, and we spent very little time thinking about the story that sort of

wa was the underpinning or the foundation of all of that content that we, we were just cranking out content.

Right.

That's

flipped. The best organizations have flipped that, right? It's like, let's get the story right then we'll worry about the content. So tho those and, and they are, they're these companies, they're getting like. They're, they're really thinking about the big things around, around these stories. Like what types of

stories can we tell?

Is this a, is this a hero's journey or is this a vision of the future or transformation stories? Something like that. So it's pretty cool to watch that and I, and I think it bodes very well for Go-To-Market organizations,

but you have to be willing to like burn down what you're doing and kind of start over for these new things to work.

Matt Amundson: [00:18:00] I have so many. I have

Craig Rosenberg: now?

Matt Amundson: have questions.

Craig Rosenberg: That was

Scott Albro: It

Craig Rosenberg: all right. Go ahead

Scott Albro: either really bad or really

Craig Rosenberg: No, that was really good. Yeah, I mean it was just deep. That was, that was deep,

bro. That was great. I, I think it's. Apt that you started talking about founder GTM and then you gave us those two. Okay. I think it was appropriate.

No, you could use apt. I just was point, I wanted it on record that I was very happy that you used the Word app as you

Matt Amundson: okay. Thank you. I'm gonna get back into it. uh, I think it was appropriate that you started with the founder, GTM, and then you talked about both tactical and strategic experiments. Because I think the only organizations that can Actually do that. are ones in which the founder is very ingrained in the Go-To-Market strategy or, ingra, or, or at least in sync with this concept of experimentation,

which I think is kind of rare, right? Because what I see in the space, like either as an operator or [00:19:00] as an advisor, is there's a lot of founders that are technical that don't really think about Go-To-Market all that much.

They just wanna build awesome product, right?

And that that serves a, a, a really important need, right? Like The other thing that's true is like you can do all the cool stuff and if your product stinks, then no one really cares. So

Craig Rosenberg: really cares. So

Matt Amundson: the problem that I see a lot of companies facing is they're like, can I do this? Is this okay?

Like, is it okay for me to go to the product team and say, Hey, what if we did something that looked like this? And then get the support from the CEO to say, yeah, product team go do this. Because they're oftentimes so, uh. focused On, you know, launching an app or hardening an

app or increasing the number of feature sets, et cetera, that like, they're like, ah, I can't do this.

little Like, marketing experiment.

I don't have the time or the bandwidth for it.

Craig Rosenberg: time,

Scott Albro: Yeah. Well, I, I love what you just said because it, it, it, um, highlights a few points that I, I think are really important. One is like [00:20:00] you know, I said that anyone can do, you know, like if you're like a sales and

marketing executive, you're

not

a founder, you, you can do this. It, it works

best if the

founder is

involved. And, and that's where this, you know, idea of the Go-To-Market founder, I think like anointing. A founder or the founder as like, no, you're not just product, you are the Go-To-Market founder is so powerful. And the reason for that is, is like founders can just do things that other people can't. Right? All, All, the way down to like tactically, like how we talk to our customers, right?

Like they can, you know, like founders understand the customer better, they can say things to customers that other people can't. They're just like a list of things that founders can do and are empowered to do by virtue of their position that nobody else can do. That's really, really good. And like a super powerful weapon if you're trying to reinvent your Go-To-Market org, which, if you're not trying to reinvent your Go-To-Market [00:21:00] org, you need to have a look in the mirror, right?

So that's one thing I think that's really important that you're bringing up. The other thing that, that I think is important is the best Go-To-Market.

Uh, orgs right

now are working

closely with

product to pull the product into the

market, right? It's, you know, we used to talk about sales and marketing alignment.

I would argue that the most important thing, alignment thing right now is not sales and marketing alignment. It is

Go-To-Market product alignment. And, um, that is, that is super important. The other thing, um, is that we are building products now that are more marketable than any other technology product that's ever been built.

That is the magic of ai, right? Like, we are not trying to market, you know, some obscure compliance product, right? We are marketing magic right now and we should take advantage of that. [00:22:00] So, um, so to totally agree with you, Matt, on, on, on those points.

Matt Amundson: Well, I guess my question for you would be then how like for organizations that want to do this, and maybe a CEO who's kind of like, Yeah. But, you know, at the end of the quarter we're gonna have to show up to a board meeting

and we're gonna have to show our, you know, metrics that we always show. Like, What's the best way to get your CEO involved in a process like this?

'cause I think Some of our listeners are gonna walk away from this and be like, yeah, that'd be great, but you know, it's really hard to get, you know, my my, my CEO uh, to support initiatives like this. Like, you. know, You've been a CEO multiple times Like, you know, you've worked with people you know, who are great at sales and marketing and Craig, and like I'd love to just, you know, get,

Craig Rosenberg: you know,

Matt Amundson: put your CEO hat on for a minute and think about like, Hey, you're, you know, my CRO or my CMO, or you know, if I don't have people at that level yet, like they're coming,

to me and they're having this conversation, how do they convince me?

Scott Albro: Yeah. [00:23:00] Well, let me, let me ask, I, I'll answer that, but let me ask you a question first. Why do you think, in your experience, why is the CEO in that hypothetical reluctant to help out on the Go-To-Market or drive the Go-To-Market

Matt Amundson: I, I think that there's, there's sort of two contrasting ideologies that. are flowing through you know, like the SaaS or AI or

whatever we call the category now anymore.

But, um, one is, you know, you've got people who are like, I need to see an ROI of everything.

Craig Rosenberg: in everything.

Matt Amundson: Right? Like, If you're gonna do this, I need to see the, ROI. and like for a lot of people that makes them retreat because they're like, well, for 20 years I've done this. And like, I know I can squeeze some ROI out of it, at the very least I can make the numbers look right. And then on the other end of the spectrum, there's people who are like you. know, Like we took the playbook and burnt it and we're just doing crazy stuff now. you look at Like a um, a company like Bland who's

just like, you know, [00:24:00] we don't care about like M QLS and stuff. like we care about, we put out a video and 10 million people.

saw it. Right? Like and those are, those are just, they, they operate so far outside of the norms of what we're all used to putting into a board deck.

And you know, sort of measuring on a weekly, monthly. and quarterly basis, they're like, um, uh, some of the tactics you talked about used to be referred to as like stunt marketing, right? Stunt marketing always feels like high risk, high reward, and like by and large most people are a little,

uh, risk averse right now and really have been for like the last 10 years,

right? And they, They've they've existed in the white paper world the pay-per-click advertising world.

The email world Like, that's not like, Hey, you know,

let's, let's, uh, like I, I started my career at Red Bull. It's not like, hey, we want to get people in San Diego drinking Red Bulls, so we're gonna go have people kamikaze, jump off a pier. Right? Like It's it's very different type of marketing and, and you're seeing people succeed in a big [00:25:00] way and then I think you're seeing people, who are like, I don't know, that's risky.

Craig Rosenberg: that's risky.

Scott Albro: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, well, I think there are a lot of different ways to get CEOs to take the bait, right? But it, it's sort of, the reason I ask you that question is it, it sort of depends upon what type of CEO you have and like what what motivates that CEO. But like some, some common, uh, things you might try are, um, you know, one thing I think most founders and CEOs are aware of now is like, software markets are more competitive now

than they ever have.

And just believing that like your product in isolation is going to win

is extremely naive.

Right.

And so, you know.

Craig Rosenberg: you know,

Scott Albro: Maybe you have a CEO or founder who's like, like hyper-focused on the competition, very concerned about that. It's like, okay, great. Let's go talk to that CEO [00:26:00] founder about that. And really make sure that they understand that the brand and our presence in the market and our value prop and so forth is just as important as the product.

Like I really believe that. And you know, if anyone needs help convincing a CEO of that, I'm happy to do it. Um, you know, you also have these CEOs out there that are very product centric, right? They just gravitate, they, they spend all their time on the product. That's just who they are and that's what they want. Well, what we were talking about earlier, Go-To-Market product alignment. That's a great way to drag that founder, CEO, into the Go-To-Market organization. Like, hey, this isn't just Go-To-Market. This is product too. Right? Then we all know the CEOs who are just focused on the metrics, right? So it's like, yeah, stunt marketing kind of, but this stuff actually works, right?

And like we have a set of metrics that we can point to, even if they're like brand metrics. That will justify you spending time here. Um, and then [00:27:00] probably the cheapest trick to pull a CEO founder and to Go-To-Market is the old, well, hey, look what X is doing. Right. You know, like, look what lovable is doing here. Right? Like that, that almost always works with CEOs, right? Well, they're doing it. Like, I'm not trying to do anything that's like brand new here. Like it is working for them, let's just go try it. Right? So, so anyway, those are, I think it just depends upon what gets your CEO up in the morning. But those are like a few things that just come to mind that I would try, depending upon who the, who the CEO

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Love it.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. The, the peer, the peer, um, driven influence on some things like this, especially in the Go-To-Market is a big Mm-hmm. And if you think about, like, I think about even leading up to today's world, like, so I worked with a, at a, at a a, essentially an SDR [00:28:00] consultancy in the year 2000. From 2000 to 2005, and we literally would have to go in, like stage one was we'd have to go in to the founders and explain to them why they needed SDRs

and run the math, and then we would have to ex, you know, convince them why they needed us to go do it.

But, um, it, everyone sort of credits predictable revenue. It was actually the second step after predictable revenue, which was all the founders read

it and then you had these founder stories of how they grew pipeline from it, that that sort of really caught, you know, made it catch like wildfire. And that was like, um, that's an example where there were other things that happened along the way that drove it.

But then once. Another founder, especially in the, in a similar space, did that Then these things started to push. We saw that at Topo, [00:29:00] by the way, even though we, we started much later than the timeline. I just did. But you, you would hear like, you know, the, the CEO or the founder would say, well, we need to get our SDR team fixed.

You know, and, and when you talk to them about what was driving, they say, well, so and so at X, Y, Z is doing this. And it was always something that the founder, you know, had told them. And I think like, uh, that in this, in the use cases we have today, I think that type of, that, that is, that, you know, it was your third on your list, Scott, but I, or you know, that was lost on your list.

But I feel like that is the key. And that's why I know you always use examples. I mean, you use lovable and you, you, you're gonna attract a lot of folks. Right. You know? Um, and, and then. You know, I wonder if we rename, I'm just going back to this idea of stunt marketing, which is, um, in my opinion, uh, it [00:30:00] is what you're doing.

But like we are in this like time here where you need these like big leaps of like standard PR doesn't work, right? So use the bland example. I mean, had they gone through the typical PR channels, they would've got like a minuscule amount of the, the visibility that they got. Um, and

Scott Albro: by, can I just say what, what I want to come back, but just quickly, what did Bland do exactly?

Craig Rosenberg: so when they announced their series A, they, um, basically had created this a video of, you know, announcing the series A, which had like a live example. Like Isaiah, the founder, CEO, literally calls. You know, the, the bland agent and has a conversation.

But that the video's kind of interesting. The distribution was amazing, right? So the, it's a 19-year-old marketing person. This, uh, kid just attacked it like you would a consumer marketing play. So it was a true growth bet. [00:31:00] He went to influencers on X.

Um, and, you know, and by the way, I, I have to talk to him about LinkedIn, 'cause LinkedIn took off too, but I don't know that they pressed as much as they did on like, the, uh, influencers that Rock X and TikTok and Instagram and just blow stuff up.

I found out about it because, you know how you, our tweet, our X feeds got all sort of scrambled. I mean, it was some. Uh, influencer, I don't know. And he wrote in his tweet, his, uh, of, of bland, he wrote, we are all fucked, right? Because it's incredible. It sounds like a real person. And then shared the video.

I'm like, who is this guy? And I open it up and the guy's got millions of followers. He's one of those guys on the, so the distribution was like a crazy bet. And so yes, they had the content that these guys would move, but like he, he really did that. And they got literally millions of views on a series A announcement.

I [00:32:00] mean, you wouldn't even get that on, you know, if you did the tech crunch sort of game. Like you would get like not even remotely close to what these guys got. And by the way, that thing's still living.

Scott Albro: Right.

Craig Rosenberg: And, and it's like, um, and so that, that was the idea there is that, well, first of all, let me ask Matt on definitionally, is that stunt marketing?

Matt Amundson: Uh, I mean, I would only say it's stunt marketing because it's, unorthodox, right? and. it's, uh, it's, it's, You have, you, you want it to go well, but you really have no idea how well it's gonna go. And then the only thing that you can really measure there is how many views you saw. And even that's hard to quantify because you're gonna get views across like multiple posters and influencers on multiple channels. But I think it's, it, it reminds me a lot, of, like my days, in B2C marketing, which is like, in a lot of cases, uh, especially in the early two thousands, it wasn't numbers, it

was a feeling and you just kind of knew it. You just kind of, knew it. and I think like for bland, it was one of [00:33:00] those things where it's just like, I knew, I knew bland obviously, 'cause they're, they're in the scale portfolio, but but then everybody I knew knew Bland because of

what they did. And that, and I just was like, holy crap. Like this went from, I, I saw when you guys, or I, I had heard when you guys.

were working with them, and then the video went and it was just like everybody knows Bland.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay,

so both of you

Scott Albro: were you

gonna re, were you gonna rename stunt marketing?

Matt Amundson: Yeah. I was thinking you

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Scott Albro: name?

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, I, yeah, I mean, here's the thing. Is it the stunt marketing sounds like stunt marketing

Scott Albro: Mm-hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: and it's like the, these are so like, uh, well, I'll give you an example. I wouldn't use this term, but like Mac on our show called it Vibe Marketing, which is like, you can't really look at the ROI of this thing.

You just gotta believe, and some won't work and some will. Uh, I just, it's hard for me to just do the vibe in front of everything thing, but like that, you [00:34:00] know, um, uh, I, I just, yeah, I, I think we should name stunt marketing. We could call it growth bets, like Scott

called it, but there's a second deck for sure. That's definitely a

No, no, but you, you, you were using it as a way to give an example of, because there's our growth bets for him, but Scott was giving us sort of, uh, really, um, amazing external examples, but growth bets can also be, um, you know, like, uh, um, you know, using AI to do something really interesting in just your communications or, I mean, would you call Boskovich having like a actor, like presenter doing demos?

Is that a growth bet scout or is that just like a radical Go-To-Market transformation?

Scott Albro: I, I tend to think of growth bets as like, they're, they're pretty digital in nature. They're public facing. They're more one to many. It's more more about establishing reach, I would say, although they could certainly impact [00:35:00] conversions. But, um, you know, what, what David's doing at Flat file or, or. Or, you know, how he's thinking about his org?

I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure how, how I would classify that. That to me is more like the revenue process and, and

Craig Rosenberg: yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, how you run different plays. But look, this is all just No, I, you can call it whatever you want.

Scott Albro: The, I import, you know, like The, I call it

growth bets. cause like experimentation is just such a mouthful.

But the core concept is experimentation,

right? Like that's, that's the concept.

Craig Rosenberg: totally. I actually, I mean the thing with the stunt, I, I'll move off the stunt marketing 'cause I wanna talk about the story, but like, it did tell me what Matt was talking about. Like when he used that, it was like, and also because he brought in Red Bull where he likes to throw in the Red Red Bull every once in a while.

Um, it start my career. Yeah, I know. And they have

Scott Albro: to, he loves to name drop that. Oh,

I [00:36:00] was at this hot, I was

Craig Rosenberg: But early, in the early days. Yeah.

Scott Albro: Yeah.

Matt Amundson: you guys may have

heard of it. We started a racing team while I was there.

Scott Albro: yeah, not some random IT security company, but a little company I like to call Red Bull. Have you heard of it?

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, but it does help. Like, it, it, so I don't know. I gotta think about it. Alright. But on the stories, uh, I mean we gra so on the storytelling now, is this like, I, someone just asked me this, I shared your deck, and they're like, is this the origin story

or is it, okay? So tell say more.

Scott Albro: All right. Well, I mean the origin, okay, so I believe that startups should tell three types of stories. One is a story essentially about your customer. It's like the pain or priorities, or whatever you wanna call it, that your customers are experiencing. And how they can solve that pain. Right? [00:37:00] Um, and a lot of people think like, oh, well that's when I pitched my product.

It's not, it's more like, Hey, you have a problem, here are like best practices, tips, whatever. By the way, I just happened to sell a product that helps with this, but that's like a secondary issue, right? So, so those are like customer pain, priority stories. You gotta have that right? Obviously. Um. Then there's a second type of story, which is what I call the transformation story, which is, you know, here is the current status quo.

It's where we are today. Here is what the world is going to look like in the future. I am the the, guide, the founder, whatever you want to call, you know, but I am your guide to help you get from the status quo to that future state. And by the way, they're gonna be winners. You know, like, people are gonna die along the journey, right?

You don't want to be one of those people. Like there's all, there are all kinds of things [00:38:00] you can weave into that transformation story, but I, I call that one the transformation story. The third story is, um, what I just call like the personal story, right? And that could be the origin story, but it doesn't have to be right.

There are other types of personal stories and anyway, so those are the types of stories that I recommend startups tell. I think the most powerful version of those stories is when you can combine all three, right? And so you've got this thing that like really resonates with the customer around pain and potential solutions.

You've got that, that customer story's big enough that it can be presented as like a transformation story, right? That will take years to unfold and your industry won't look the same and you may not be here, that competitor may not be here, whatever. And then you can make that stuff like deeply personal, you know, like, Hey, I used to work in that industry, so, and I [00:39:00] remember when it was like this, right?

And this is very personal, it's why I started the company. To your point about the origin story. So those are the stories that you want to tell. If the origin story's part of that, awesome. but but it doesn't need to be.

Craig Rosenberg: alright, two reactions. One is, one of you guys is about to be attacked by a swarm of bees. Uh, the noise is, uh,

Scott Albro: Hey Sam, are we gonna producer or Sam, are we gonna be able, that's my, uh, that's my, landscaper. Um, are we gonna be able to

blow to get rid of

that or do I need

to move?

Sam Guertin: we'll, we'll smooth it out in editing.

Matt Amundson: One of the things that I noticed earlier was there was this Absolutely wonderful symphony of birds chirping, And it was definitely coming, from use. It was like so incredibly pleasant. And then they stopped

and then, Yeah. the, the, uh,

Craig Rosenberg: the swarm of bees

Matt Amundson: started flying over your

Scott Albro: Yeah. The, the, there's like, [00:40:00] I, I am like surrounded by like lawnmowers and

Sam Guertin: there's, there's not like an

Scott Albro: leaf blowers.

Sam Guertin: right?

Scott Albro: No, there's

Craig Rosenberg: Well, well, well, we're almost at the top. It's fine. Well, um, it's happened before. The second one I, I was thinking about was like,

Scott Albro: of bees.

Craig Rosenberg: I don't even remember the second one. That was really

Scott Albro: There's no need.

Craig Rosenberg: No. That, that

Scott Albro: that's just a walk off right there, so,

Craig Rosenberg: man. No, but I, I do think that's incredibly helpful, by the way, one of the areas where that, the, that is helpful just having now listened to, uh. Fundraising pitches, uh, you know, the storytelling is like a real thing in that room. I'm sure you were good at it when you're, you know, when you've been raising.

But like that these things, there's, so, there's a lot of really good sort of healthy things that, for the business around just being able to, you know, [00:41:00] frame everything around this sort of storytelling methodology. You

Scott Albro: I, I, I ra I, raised a lot of money telling a story.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Scott Albro: like, like, Yeah. Probably too much, right?

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: like Matt, in his stories, he would say, look like I started at this upstart, uh, consumer company. Some of you may have heard of it. It's called Red Bull. Um, I also put together,

Scott Albro: Little company. Little company. I like to call Red Bull. Um, look at how Ner look at how nervous Sam was. Sam is like freaking out over this background noise. He's, he's literally thinking like, is, is this thing usable? Which it might be better, better if it's not, but um, yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: nah, no. He's taken his magic. I make fun of the guy 'cause he's very make fun people. Um,

and, Craig Rosenberg.

Matt Amundson: Geez.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Jesus.

Scott Albro: [00:42:00] Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: but, but he does work. Once he gets on the wheels of steel, dude, that dude can turn, uh, turn every podcast into magic. So we'll be all right on that. Um, all right. You know that I think this was, uh, I think this is like one of those topics where, uh, your mind kind of flows. I think, um, we'll continue because there's so many growth bets happening and there's, we're seeing more and more founders come to the forefront and being able to see their stories.

There's gonna be a lot of really good examples, man,

Scott Albro: Totally,

Craig Rosenberg: that continue to come to life. So we should just keep talking about this. I think it's really important. I think the other thing to remember is like, it doesn't end right, like.

You know, the, the best salespeople and best pitchmen of, you know, fortune five companies are their CEOs.

And, um, you know, how they, how they talk and I, they get more formal when they get bigger. But, um, I think it's a, I think it's a real part of the go-to-market plan, and [00:43:00] that is evidenced by the reaction to your presentation at Summit Scott, where you had people that were SEI seed all the way up to like, you know, Tricia Gelman, like loving your thing or, or Lena Waters is, you know, they, they're at major corporations essentially.

So anyway, I thought that was a great show.

Scott Albro: Awesome. Well Yeah. The be, the, be

Sam Guertin: if, if we have a spare moment, I just wanted to address something. Scott, uh, you, you, um,

Scott Albro: I am

Sam Guertin: were not very appreciative. I. Uh, you took some umbrage with, um, an image that I created, uh, where you were in a, in a fez.

Scott Albro: Yeah. Yeah. Well, can you, can you blame me? I mean, you put me in a fez.

Craig Rosenberg: When was, when was, when was Albo in a Fed, by the way? I have a

Matt Amundson: on the

Indiana Jones,

uh, poster.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh

yeah. Yeah, you're right. You [00:44:00] just has Sam just has carte blanche. You, you don't, you don't like review this stuff. I mean, this,

I didn't

even know he created it. I

called him to yell at him.

Scott Albro: I think my exact words were this is a human rights violation on many levels. Like,

Matt Amundson: I slipped him a hundred bucks.

to make me Indiana Jones. So, uh, it was well

Scott Albro: yeah. You look, You you, It's the best

looked good

Craig Rosenberg: best I've ever.

Scott Albro: Rosenberg was disturbing looking though.

Sam Guertin: Uh, that,

that wasn't great.

Matt Amundson: hallucination.

Scott Albro: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: No, no ai. AI struggles with me,

dude. I've been trying to. I've

been trying to make a picture of myself. It's nuts, dude. Like I, I mean, it cannot nail me at all. And actually, a picture that's a perfect example is the Lethal Weapon movie, TR poster, where Matt looks like a badass.

Scott Albro: What the fuck?

Craig Rosenberg: Thank you.

Scott Albro: You okay? You made me

Craig Rosenberg: [00:45:00] Is that Kevin Bacon?

Scott Albro: no, that's Mike Pence. That's Mike Pence. Dude, You made me look like Mike Pence.

Sam Guertin: Uh, so the, the, the, the source, uh, that I was working from

Scott Albro: Oh, now you're gonna blame it for, for this one, no, it was just like, what the inspiration was, was, uh,

Sam Guertin: this one right here.

Scott Albro: that's great. That now that's cool. Now put up the other

one.

Sam Guertin: it's,

Scott Albro: that's not cool.