The Transaction

TT - 072 - Omar Akhtar
===

Omar Akhtar: [00:00:00] One of the big things I found was that the companies that were successful were spending [00:00:05] equal amounts on brand versus demand.

Omar Akhtar: The companies that weren't doing well were overspending on demand generation [00:00:10] marketing.

Omar Akhtar: We're really in the middle of a SaaS recession,

Omar Akhtar: Our growth rates for B2B [00:00:15] SaaS companies are now at a median of 11 to 20%. When they used to be north of 30%. [00:00:20] 40% would be expected if you were a growing company.

Omar Akhtar: Companies that were growing more than other [00:00:25] companies were spending on paid channels more. Those things are more expensive, but they do [00:00:30] work in terms of faster growth.

Omar Akhtar: We're in an era of marketing inflation. While the [00:00:35] performance across channels is more or less the same, you have to pay more to get that same [00:00:40] performance.

Omar Akhtar: Cause you can't cut your way to growth anymore.

Omar Akhtar: What is working in the marketing world, the [00:00:45] one bright spot is events.

Craig Rosenberg: By the way, Omar, what do you think of my background? This is a [00:00:50] test to see

Craig Rosenberg: if you can hang.

Omar Akhtar: I love this background. I [00:00:55] wish, you know, everybody tells you don't have a busy background, and I'm like, no, man. Get as busy as you want. [00:01:00] I love it.

Craig Rosenberg: ​[00:01:05] [00:01:10] [00:01:15] [00:01:20] so yeah, so look, I've, I stumbled on [00:01:25] Omar because, um. I saw some of his work, um, I think in [00:01:30] the coffee chat or coffee talk chat or whatever. And then, you know, I was talking to Matt [00:01:35] Hines and he is like, oh, well dude, you gotta meet Omar. Um, [00:01:40] and you know, I, uh, you know, his work is, is really great. [00:01:45] If I think, you know, hopefully we'll be exposing that to a lot of people, I think including Matt.

Craig Rosenberg: I don't know if you've [00:01:50] seen Omar stuff yet, but you Yeah. You're gonna love it. Um, but like. I've [00:01:55] had like 40 people over the last two, three years come to me and say, I want to build the next [00:02:00] topo. And I tell them, if you cherish your life, don't do it. [00:02:05] Um, and, uh, but, but the, the true thing is that, uh, data's hard [00:02:10] and selling data to, um, B2B companies can be [00:02:15] hard. But if you deliver really amazing actionable insights, which is what [00:02:20] Omar's trying to do. Um, you can start to see a guy like him, [00:02:25] uh, sort of standing out above the rest and so that's why I [00:02:30] had to have him on the show. Um, it's, um, an honor to have you [00:02:35] and, um, thank you for joining us today, Omar.

Omar Akhtar: [00:02:40] Craig, thank you so much for that very generous introduction. I really feel like [00:02:45] everything else is gonna be a let down after that one. So, uh, I, I appreciate you setting the bar,

Omar Akhtar: but [00:02:50] it's a pleasure to meet you. Yeah,

Omar Akhtar: I, I really appreciate meeting you and, uh, thank [00:02:55] you for having me on today.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, man, I, uh, it's funny for us, so this will be [00:03:00] a real test. So it's like the folks that, um. I [00:03:05] just met you like a month ago, so like having to come on and try to hang with the [00:03:10] banter, um, is gonna be, that'll be part of your, uh, that'll be part of your [00:03:15] test. And also the big test will be the story. So we got two [00:03:20] parts to the show.

Craig Rosenberg: Number one is tell us, uh, a great Go-To-Market story [00:03:25] or, you know, company founding story or anything like that. Um, that's, you know, [00:03:30] either funny, heroic, sad, um, like. Our [00:03:35] craziest one, I think to date is the, um, maggots on the plane.

Sam Guertin: [00:03:40] Raccoon,

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. That, that was a great one.

Craig Rosenberg: But can I, uh, [00:03:45] uh, and then the

Craig Rosenberg: second part is like, tell us one to three things that you're seeing in the [00:03:50] data, everyone that's working in, um, in today's environment. Um, before you [00:03:55] guys go on your story, I gotta tell you guys, dude. Oh my God, today I [00:04:00] met with a, a buddy, I won't say his name. Um, and he [00:04:05] was, you know, I had surgery in like two months and I'm like, what's up? He's like, oh, well I gotta get this plate [00:04:10] fixed. And I'm like, oh, what, what happened? So dude, he was on a sales call [00:04:15] and he was, um, with a big company in like Dallas I think, or [00:04:20] somewhere in Texas. And he went to the bathroom, came out, was on his [00:04:25] phone, texting. He flips over the hotel railing [00:04:30] because he is not paying attention, falls two stories.

Omar Akhtar: Good

Matt Amundson: shouldn't have [00:04:35] laughed.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. That was, by the way, for the person whose story this is, Matt just [00:04:40] laughed and then he, he, he, landed on a couch, [00:04:45] so he was still concussed and he, you know, he's, he's had to have surgery. But [00:04:50] like, how fricking crazy is

Craig Rosenberg: that man? So like, and by the way, I mean, he [00:04:55] got, he got the deal and you know, he's, you know, doing his thing. But like, it was just [00:05:00] amazing. Um, all right, so, uh, so there that, sorry, I had to throw in [00:05:05] that

Craig Rosenberg: story. I couldn't believe it. Matt thought it was hilarious. Uh, so, [00:05:10] uh, Omar, you can see that

Craig Rosenberg: we're not sure, like depending on your story, Matt's [00:05:15] reaction, we'll have to see.

Craig Rosenberg: But anyway,

Craig Rosenberg: tell

Craig Rosenberg: us have to listen to the whole thing before I react too. But the [00:05:20] way.

Omar Akhtar: You know, can I like jokes aside, there's a class of people and I'm sure that you've [00:05:25] encountered them who will laugh at the worst. The news is, will [00:05:30] laugh even more. And, and it's sort of like, it called it a nervous tick or whatever, whatever it [00:05:35] is. Um, and when they have to deliver, deliver bad news to you, their smile gets bigger and [00:05:40] bigger and they just don't know how to deal with it. And, and I've seen this sort of in comedy shows, but I've also [00:05:45] encountered it in real life. I'm like. Dude, why are you smiling when you're giving me the worst news possible? [00:05:50] And, uh, yeah, Matt, I don't know if if, if that's, if that's your thing, but just so, just so [00:05:55] you know, this is a safe space and we all we're accepting of all, all sorts of nervous [00:06:00] ticks, uh, that sort of thing.

Omar Akhtar: Cool. What should I tell you? Uh, a Go-To-Market story that is [00:06:05] not very related to business, but I think has some fun

Omar Akhtar: lessons.

Craig Rosenberg: That those are the ones [00:06:10] we like.

Omar Akhtar: Yeah. Okay. Cool.

Craig Rosenberg: we'll see how Matt reacts so.

Sam Guertin: It [00:06:15] started

Omar Akhtar: So It started

Omar Akhtar: with my dog dying. No, I'm looking at mad. No, I'm kidding. It's not that.[00:06:20]

Omar Akhtar: Uh, but yeah. [00:06:25] Um, no. So here, here's the thing. Um.

Sam Guertin: you.

Omar Akhtar: [00:06:30] Unlike you.

Omar Akhtar: guys, I did not, um, start at the age of five thinking I was gonna go [00:06:35] into B2B marketing and sales. Um, what I did in fact think about was being a [00:06:40] rockstar. Uh, that is literally my only life goal was I'm gonna play in a band. I heard [00:06:45] Eddie Van Halen rip a guitar solo.

Omar Akhtar: Michael Jackson's beat it when I was five years old, and I'm like, that's what I want to

Omar Akhtar: [00:06:50] do. And so I learned how to play guitar. I got older, uh, you know, joined [00:06:55] a bunch of bands, singer songwriter, and this is back in my native Pakistan, right? And, uh, [00:07:00] and, and so I did that for a while, came to the us, went to college, and went back to Pakistan with the sole purpose [00:07:05] of I'm gonna start a rock band and we're gonna be famous.

Omar Akhtar: Alright? And so how do, [00:07:10] again, this is very, very much like, okay, how do you start something from scratch or just like catch fire. Um, we started [00:07:15] off as you do, playing weddings and backyards and we were terrible, but we got better. Then time went on. [00:07:20] Um, but we, things really started to take off. When I did two things.

Omar Akhtar: I started [00:07:25] blogging about my experiences in a band. Um, but here's the thing. I [00:07:30] started off by blogging with the truth. And then I eventually started blogging with just [00:07:35] completely made up stuff saying that. So I'd created these [00:07:40] narratives where I encountered local celebrities and I jammed with them. And then I'd [00:07:45] sort of come it, it got, and I started getting a blog following and it got wilder and wilder where I was just [00:07:50] like completely making up stuff that did not happen at all.

Omar Akhtar: And half the like to the point [00:07:55] where it was like. Like, it was so obvious, but half the audience didn't know that I, what the [00:08:00] joke was. They were like, you're lying. You didn't actually go on a private plane [00:08:05] with Bill Gates. And I'm like, no, I totally did. And, and this kind of like started building a [00:08:10] blog following did the other thing we started to do. We started to put out promo [00:08:15] videos where the band members and I would pretend to be other famous [00:08:20] people and we put it out completely straight faced. Let's say that. Hi. So imagine [00:08:25] if that would be like the equivalent of me saying that. Um, hi, this [00:08:30] is, uh, you know. It's, it's me, bono from U2 and, [00:08:35] and I'm, I want you to like, yeah, I'd like you to come to my show.

Omar Akhtar: That's gonna be at this place, [00:08:40] et cetera, et cetera. So, um, completely straight-faced and those videos took off. This is [00:08:45] before TikTok. This is before Vine. This is before YouTube. This is just me putting stuff out. I, it was Facebook at the [00:08:50] time, and we did that and every time we sort of like tried to see how much more over the top, can we [00:08:55] go? Um, one of the people who we were parodying got pissed, reached out to us and told us to [00:09:00] take it down. And we put up another video doubling down on it, saying [00:09:05] that, no, no, no, we are the real famous celebrity, the other guy's a fake, and [00:09:10] that video went viral. And so half these people started coming to our shows, just be like, I don't [00:09:15] know if these guys sound good or not, but man, they're funny. And, and eventually we, we, we [00:09:20] got into this thing and, and I got semi-famous in Pakistan. Um, [00:09:25] I was on a, a a, so the band actually had like a couple of hit singles. And then, anyway, long story short, that was [00:09:30] fun for a while. I turned 30. I couldn't wear leather pants with any credibility anymore. Um, and uh, [00:09:35] and then I decided I was gonna be a writer.

Omar Akhtar: So, uh, that sort of led me out in a couple of steps [00:09:40] to where I am today, but it was rockstar, then writer and, [00:09:45] uh, now B2B, SaaS marketing Analyst. So you can [00:09:50] see

Matt Amundson: It is a tale as old as

Omar Akhtar: then wanna end on such a sad note. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:09:55] Okay. Um, first of all, my favorite is that [00:10:00] I, the notification I get from squad is network is struggling.

Omar Akhtar: [00:10:05] Oh gosh.

Omar Akhtar: It, What a description. Oh, I know it is. Um, [00:10:10] well, hold on Matt. I mean, Matt, we didn't mean to discourage you from not [00:10:15] reacting with how you feel. Share your emotions with us.

Matt Amundson: Well, it was a, it was a rollercoaster, you know, it [00:10:20] had ups and downs. It twists and turns. It had rising action. It was, I mean, I [00:10:25] gave it an A plus. Great story.

Craig Rosenberg: I thought it was a great story by the way, [00:10:30] you, that was interesting, fun, and let's go through a couple [00:10:35] things before we move on. One is, how did the dog dying fit into the story?

Omar Akhtar: [00:10:40] I just wanted to see if Matt, if, if Matt was gonna laugh or not.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:10:45] Uh, so, and then you wore leather [00:10:50] pants. Can we dig into that? Um, are so you're no longer wearing what? Leather pants? Is

Omar Akhtar: You [00:10:55] know, they ripped on stage. They were so

Omar Akhtar: tight that I, I bend down and [00:11:00] I heard the rip and I had to go behind a giant amplifier and change, uh, luck. So [00:11:05] he, I mean this is how well I got lucky 'cause I arrived to the show in my regular jeans I [00:11:10] changed into my leather pants, like Avenger style and, and then those ripped on [00:11:15] stage. I don't think anyone saw it. I think my drummer saw it. Uh, and then I just kind of went behind [00:11:20] an amp changed and came out and, uh, yeah. That's my, that's my cool rockstar story.

Matt Amundson: [00:11:25] Nice.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh my God. I

Craig Rosenberg: love it. yeah. Um, [00:11:30] also those, those pants were a gift. And if there's a lesson for all of you, don't ever get leather pants [00:11:35] as a gift. 'cause the quality is just questionable

Omar Akhtar: and you don't think they're gonna fit.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: That's a [00:11:40] best practice I

Craig Rosenberg: can get down. Yeah. I mean, normally I like store-bought leather [00:11:45] pants. Um,

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Ray, Ray Rike had a similar thought on leather pants on his [00:11:50] episode as well, I think.

Craig Rosenberg: he, what was.

Matt Amundson: No, no. I'm [00:11:55] joking.

Craig Rosenberg: I, um, cool. All [00:12:00] right, so that was, so I'll give you an a on that story actually. That was excellent, man. I appreciate [00:12:05] you on that, man.

Craig Rosenberg: That was really good. There was a whole bunch of elements, as Matt said, there was ups and downs. [00:12:10] Uh, you're very eloquent in the storytelling process. That's great. Um, all

Craig Rosenberg: [00:12:15] right, so yeah, of course.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, so we've intimidated Matt, this is [00:12:20] not him.

Craig Rosenberg: This is not him. Well, where are you man? Like, you're funny, [00:12:25] you're funny. Um, hold on. This is incredible.

Matt Amundson: Your [00:12:30] dog has entered the room. Craig has like [00:12:35] an 800 pound St. Bernard.

Omar Akhtar: It's, it sounds like

Omar Akhtar: it. I mean, there's [00:12:40] a few dogs. You're like, yeah, that sounds about

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: All right. So, uh, [00:12:45] it's my 14-year-old kid's birthday and it was supposed to be casual and I'm a grand [00:12:50] in just trying to buy alcohol and the cake, my wife and the cakes and all that. [00:12:55] Um, all right. So tell us what's going on. Like, um, you have the data, so like what are [00:13:00] the things that are working today?

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, just to give you the background on the podcast, Matt and I [00:13:05] started it because we were like. Things are changing. Let's, let's go [00:13:10] figure it out. And we were talking to people and then talking among ourselves. Um, you may not [00:13:15] have, you know, as you get used to our podcast, that's sort of a reflection of it, but like we had [00:13:20] really good banter about it and we're like, let's go put it on a podcast.

Craig Rosenberg: So we like guys like [00:13:25] you coming on and tell us things that the market doesn't know are confirming things that they do know. And so [00:13:30] we're looking forward to this one man. Talk

Omar Akhtar: Yeah, absolutely. So I started Benchmarker. [00:13:35] Um, so just to, to give you some a bit of context, um, I've been a research analyst [00:13:40] or career analyst for about what, like last decade or so. Um, I started off, uh, as a [00:13:45] MarTech analyst. I was one of the first people, first journalist to write about Adobe Marketing [00:13:50] Cloud, Salesforce Marketing Cloud, and it's kind of the wars that were happening there. And then I joined Altimeter [00:13:55] Group, which is kinda like a baby forester out here in the Bay Bay area to write about. Marketing [00:14:00] excellence. And we got acquired by consultancy who used us to do research on what [00:14:05] good marketing looks like, what are the marketing best practices, um, you know, maturity models, et cetera.

Omar Akhtar: [00:14:10] And along the way, every single one of my clients, which are Fortune 500 companies, would ask me, could you just give us the

Omar Akhtar: [00:14:15] numbers? Like what are the benchmarks for what good looks like? Especially for a company of my

Omar Akhtar: size and the [00:14:20] way that I Go-To-Market. And I dunno about you guys. Um. If you, if you were under a [00:14:25] billion dollars in annual revenue, it's really tough to get that data.

Omar Akhtar: I think, you know, Forner and Gartner kind of give you [00:14:30] some of it if you're above a certain level. So I thought that was a, a, a, a, something that was lacking in the [00:14:35] market and I thought I could probably do a better job of doing this my on my own. And I had this, [00:14:40] uh, sense that, you know, if we go out there and we survey the right people, and if we go to the [00:14:45] executives directly, and if we give them some sort of financial incentive, we can get good data.

Omar Akhtar: Even if the end [00:14:50] number isn't high, at least we'll know that the data we're getting is solid. And so at the [00:14:55] beginning of, of 2024, I set out, I, I spoke to a bunch of folks, um, who I knew saying, [00:15:00] Hey, if I build this thing, will you buy it? They said, yeah, we'll, we'll we'll check it out. And so I formed Benchmark [00:15:05] and so now this is my second year running Benchmark and I do surveys on [00:15:10] specifically for B2B SaaS companies and their marketing teams. And I only look at, [00:15:15] um, well, I look at a couple of things. I look at budgets and spending. I look at performance [00:15:20] benchmarks. Um, I'm also gonna be looking at tech adoption. What does a tech stack look like? How does it change [00:15:25] as you go from small company to big company? Um, and then I'm also looking at things like [00:15:30] events and content marketing.

Omar Akhtar: Really just to give you a full picture of what does marketing look like [00:15:35] or average marketing, good marketing look like at a B2B SaaS company, and how is it different when [00:15:40] you are a sub $10 million company, or a hundred million dollar company, or a $500 million [00:15:45] company so you can cut the results. By the type of company that you are, makes a big difference.

Omar Akhtar: Also makes a big difference if [00:15:50] you're going after the enterprise or not. Um, so all of that is to say that, [00:15:55] uh, the first year I did this survey, I found something that was interesting, and again, I, I'm not a [00:16:00] marketer, I don't have a dog in this fight, but I found that, uh,

Omar Akhtar: last year that companies [00:16:05] that exceeded their revenue targets, um, were spending more on brand [00:16:10] marketing than they were on demand marketing. And then I repeated the survey again this year. [00:16:15] Uh, even though generally they were spending more on demand gen marketing. This year I did the survey again, [00:16:20] one of the big things I found was that. The companies that were successful were [00:16:25] spending equal amounts on brand versus demand. Even though spending on brand had come down, um, they're spending [00:16:30] equal amounts on brand versus demand, but the companies that weren't doing well were overspending on demand [00:16:35] generation marketing.

Omar Akhtar: And that was a really sort of key finding to me. But when I zoomed out, there's [00:16:40] a couple things that that, that also came to mind that I think we as marketers know, [00:16:45] but we can't quantify, which is that we're really in the middle of a SaaS recession, [00:16:50] our growth rates for this past year, for B2B, SaaS companies are now at a median of 11 [00:16:55] to 20%. When they used to be north of 30%, it would, 40% would be expected [00:17:00] if you were a growing company. 11 to 20% is the lowest it's been in a long time. [00:17:05] The other thing that we're seeing is we're in an era of marketing inflation. So [00:17:10] while the performance across channels is more or less the same, you have to pay more to get [00:17:15] that same performance.

Omar Akhtar: So your cost per lead on paid search, your cost per lead on [00:17:20] LinkedIn, those are, you know, on search it's about a hundred dollars per lead. On LinkedIn, it's north of 200, [00:17:25] sometimes even $300 a lead, which is astronomical compared to what it used to be. [00:17:30] And so the big finding to me was, um. That growth rates are down, [00:17:35] there's marketing inflation.

Omar Akhtar: The same amount of budgets get you worse performance. And you, [00:17:40] this idea that we used to have for a long time where you have to do more with less [00:17:45] doesn't hold true anymore, 'cause you can't cut your way to growth

Omar Akhtar: anymore. You have to choose if [00:17:50] you're going to be an efficient company or an efficient marketing team or a marketing team that's [00:17:55] growing exponentially. It's really, really difficult to do both at the same [00:18:00] time. That's kind of the, the biggest sort of, um, uh, false [00:18:05] perception that I'd like to disprove.

Craig Rosenberg: Damn g

Omar Akhtar: [00:18:10] That was a lot. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt, I, I know we've been teasing him, but, [00:18:15] um, CMO, Matt, what's your reaction to that?

Matt Amundson: Well, my reaction [00:18:20] is, is like, I think, uh, in the sort of heyday, um, [00:18:25] the, you know, call it 2010s all the way up until the end of [00:18:30] ZIRP, like, you know, companies that were growing were spending a ton of money on marketing, and they like, [00:18:35] yes, they wanted to be efficient and yes, they had benchmark metrics that they were using, you know, provided from people like, [00:18:40] like, like Omar.

Matt Amundson: But, um, people were comfortable [00:18:45] outspending. Right. They were comfortable with that, and I think what is [00:18:50] potentially different in the current day and age is that like. [00:18:55] You know, some of these huge companies like Cursor and Lovable, they don't really do very much [00:19:00] advertising. You know, their product sort of speaks for itself, or they do advertising in, or marketing in sort of [00:19:05] non-traditional ways through community and whatnot.

Matt Amundson: So I, I, I think, like [00:19:10] what I, you know, what, what I hear from my peers is their marketing budgets are constantly getting [00:19:15] slashed. How do I replace human beings or certain technology with AI that's [00:19:20] more cost effective and it's hurting marketing. Right. It's just hurting and their companies [00:19:25] are not growing as a result.

Matt Amundson: Um, like we have tried to put a lot of controls [00:19:30] over how much money we're deploying, you know, have like really airtight metrics around what the [00:19:35] ROI of everything that we do is. Which is good and, you know, looks great in a board deck. But [00:19:40] the thing that doesn't look great in a board deck is when that a RR growth isn't there.

Matt Amundson: And [00:19:45] I, I, I think generally speaking, that that is like the sort of catch 22 that we're stuck in [00:19:50] right now is as SaaS companies are getting displaced by AI companies, those SaaS [00:19:55] companies are spending less money and they're becoming less visible and, you know, [00:20:00] it's, it's kind of doubling their decline or the rate of their decline I should say.

Omar Akhtar: [00:20:05] the, the other thing to, to keep in mind is that. A lot of this stuff is out of marketing's hands. Most of it is [00:20:10] out of marketing hands. You brought up the, the, you know, lovable and cursor that when, when [00:20:15] you have a great product, you don't have to do much. And a lot of of [00:20:20] companies sort of forget that part is like, there's only so much marketing can do and there's a lot of bad [00:20:25] SaaS out there. Um, that's been, you know, in, in the heyday especially, and there was [00:20:30] a big uptick in this like right post COVID where things were just going bananas for a while, [00:20:35] where people just bought a lot of stuff. Not just SaaS, but everything else in the economy as well. [00:20:40] And so we, we now are in a very saturated market, and the, the, the [00:20:45] SaaS that's winning are the incumbents.

Omar Akhtar: The, the sales forces and the HubSpots of the, you know, [00:20:50] the category leaders, the folks that have spending power in brand, um, they [00:20:55] have spent, you know, they're not likely to get pushed out if they're being bought by enterprises, they don't wanna sort of switch [00:21:00] them out at this point in time. So the mid-size and the smaller SaaS are really getting hurt by [00:21:05] this development out here. And unless you, and you know, people look at lovable and cursor, but [00:21:10] they're the exceptions that prove the rule almost in a sense that like, yeah, one or two AI [00:21:15] native companies are really taking off rocket growth.

Omar Akhtar: Most of them kind of dead in the water [00:21:20] 'cause they're not always solving great use cases.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. That's [00:21:25] amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: All right, so

Craig Rosenberg: So

Craig Rosenberg: let's do the, the companies that are doing [00:21:30] well things. So, so they spend equal amounts on brand and demand [00:21:35]

Craig Rosenberg: is what you, okay.

Omar Akhtar: Yeah. And, and so it's really so much about, uh, when you [00:21:40] think about it, it's, it's not so much that the companies that are doing well are spending more on brand and demand, it's that the companies that are not doing [00:21:45] well are spending so much more on brand, on

Omar Akhtar: demand. Sorry. And, and that's [00:21:50] the, the thing that really sort of puts it into relief to say that, okay, um, this isn't working.

Omar Akhtar: [00:21:55] And what that shows is it's, it's a, it's a. And, and you know, a lot of people like causation versus [00:22:00] correlation. So I dug a little deeper and I found out that the companies that were doing well were also doing a few other things differently. [00:22:05] They were spending more as a whole, generally their percentage of [00:22:10] budget allocated to market or percentage of annual revenue allocated to marketing was, uh, 10 to [00:22:15] 12%.

Omar Akhtar: Versus companies that were, um, not doing well, were spending less than that closer to like [00:22:20] seven to 9%. The other thing they were doing was that companies that were growing more than other companies were [00:22:25] spending on paid channels more so they're spending on paid search, they're spending on paid social. [00:22:30] Those things are more expensive, but they do work in terms of faster growth. [00:22:35] They work better than your organic channels like content marketing or email marketing, which [00:22:40] tend to sort of, people fall back on those things when your, your ad [00:22:45] budgets or your marketing budgets get cut because they think they're not as expensive and they're not, but they're also not as efficient [00:22:50] at reaching a large group of people.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. You know, we, we, uh, you know, as a show [00:22:55] we're try, you know, we're like trying to find the, the other stuff. And then we had Amy [00:23:00] Holtzman on who's, um, God, where is she? Matt, do you remember her

Craig Rosenberg: company?

Matt Amundson: Check.[00:23:05]

Sam Guertin: Check.

Craig Rosenberg: Check.

Craig Rosenberg: and she gets on and she's like, you know what? Like, you [00:23:10] know what my top, we asked her the same thing. She's like, you know what? Paid search [00:23:15] brought us the, our biggest enterprise deals that closed [00:23:20] in quarter. And Matt was like, I know. Like, it's like [00:23:25] we, we just, we, and this is like a good reminder for us 'cause we're always, [00:23:30] well at least I am Matt's, Matt lives it every day.

Craig Rosenberg: But like [00:23:35] we. We're trying to find the other things and, uh, you know, [00:23:40] a paid channel, even if it's a little bit more expensive, if not a lot more [00:23:45] expensive, that's delivering the results. You, those, those are the things where [00:23:50] it sounds like good companies and many people we know are still spending

Craig Rosenberg: their money. It's the right place to [00:23:55] do it. Right.

Craig Rosenberg: I do wonder on the content marketing, [00:24:00] the yield on that, it feels like you just have to do it, but like. I don't [00:24:05] know, Matt, like, is like the organic, I mean it, it's like [00:24:10] product organic is like what you were sort of describing on the first two. I don't know what your thoughts [00:24:15] are on that part of the, or what Omar was talking about.

Matt Amundson: Well, we're gonna be [00:24:20] releasing our first like, state of DevOps report, which was a l lengthy [00:24:25] process that we, we, uh, we underwent in order to get that to market. So, I hope [00:24:30] content marketing still works really well, but my expectations are not necessarily that it's gonna [00:24:35] drive me, you know, a hundred demo requests in the first, uh, week that it was launched.

Matt Amundson: I do think it's [00:24:40] important, you know. In certain cases, like your content [00:24:45] becomes the sort of fulcrum of your, of your brand. Like, do you want to be seen [00:24:50] as a company that you know is data driven, has access to unique kinds of [00:24:55] data, can, can provide insights, uh, that people can't find in other places? [00:25:00] Um, do you wanna be creative, funny?

Matt Amundson: Do you want to attack an incumbent? Like these [00:25:05] are these, these are the things that become kind of the tip of the spear for, for who you are as a brand. [00:25:10] There's, there's certainly not like the, it's all, it's, it's certainly not all encompassing of what a brand strategy. [00:25:15] Is, but, uh, but it should be in line with what your brand strategy is supposed to [00:25:20] be.

Matt Amundson: Um, I think content like still matters. I think it, [00:25:25] it's a little bit, it's, it's different now than it [00:25:30] was before, right? Because people are far more picky about what they want to engage [00:25:35] with, right? Um, I think generally shorter works better than longer. [00:25:40] But it is also sort of good to have these long content assets.

Matt Amundson: People are like, at least you [00:25:45] have taken author, you know, an authoritative stance on, on something. And you've done [00:25:50] research. I don't know if they read it or not, but they're like, oh, you got a 35 page white [00:25:55] paper. That's, that's some thoughtful stuff. Um, so I think that there's maybe a [00:26:00] little gravitas, halo effect that comes along with that.

Matt Amundson: But I think the thing is, is. [00:26:05] Consistently pumping out content is what matters. And if you go to, you know, some of these hyper [00:26:10] scaled out companies, you know. The cursors or whatnot, they have a lot of really short blog [00:26:15] posts, two, three paragraphs. In a lot of cases it's product announcement or feature announcement, [00:26:20] things like that.

Matt Amundson: But, um, people want to just consume really quickly and I think [00:26:25] more and more people, um. They value content that's [00:26:30] been written about a company from a peer more than they value the [00:26:35] content that's written from the brand itself. And so it comes back to the community aspect. I [00:26:40] think, you know, the secret sauce of, of why Cursor is so big is they've got this really [00:26:45] thriving Reddit community where people are posting every day about new and cool stuff that they're doing with the [00:26:50] product.

Matt Amundson: Creating that is very, very hard. Like people, people are just kinda [00:26:55] like, oh, start a subreddit and, and, and you know, you're off and running. That's, it's not that easy. [00:27:00] If it was, uh, there'd be a lot more cursors on this planet. And there as it is, there's only [00:27:05] one.

Omar Akhtar: High risk hire

Omar Akhtar: reward completely. Well, I'm, I'm really glad to hear you say you're [00:27:10] doing a state of report. I still believe that the only content moats that are [00:27:15] there are either you have proprietary research that you've put out there that's actually [00:27:20] valuable to people, and the other one is if you have.

Omar Akhtar: Individuals who are doing [00:27:25] micro content marketing and they're just charismatic and they're, they're great followers. You know, just like you said, [00:27:30] people are not buying from the brands anymore. They're buying from people. And if you are lucky enough to have a few [00:27:35] folks in your team that do that day in, day out, and you've got a great following and, and they're authentically, [00:27:40] um, engaging and social media channels, there's nothing like it. Um, anything in between just [00:27:45] kind of falls a apart. So, um, what doesn't work anymore is kind [00:27:50] of your mid-size blog post, like about.

Omar Akhtar: Nothing, um, like 500 [00:27:55] words to a thousand words. So I always tell people like either go tiny or go big, don't anything in the middle, just kind of. No one [00:28:00] really reads that anymore. Um, so I, you know, and even things like podcasts, um, I, I did a [00:28:05] report last year where people were getting like an average of a hundred, 200 views on podcasts, but [00:28:10] everyone, which is not a lot, but consistently, I, everyone I speak to says it's been my best [00:28:15] channel in terms of engagement.

Omar Akhtar: And part of the reason is that, a, it's authentic. [00:28:20] B people just like watching people's

Omar Akhtar: faces. Um, and, and with the, I'm [00:28:25] using that as a segue to talk about, you know, what is working in the marketing world. The one bright [00:28:30] spot is events

Omar Akhtar: and we're seeing spending on events. [00:28:35] You know, it's, it's gone up to. The median on my report was, uh, like 18 to 20% of the [00:28:40] total marketing programs budget. But in speaking to CMOs, some are allocating even a third [00:28:45] of their budget to events. And when I mean events, it's not just like a big marquee event that they do on their [00:28:50] own. It's smaller sponsored dinners. It's, um, you know, very targeted, very [00:28:55] boutique sort of, um, you know, face-to-face meetings where they're getting some prospects together with [00:29:00] existing clients and. You know, what's old is new again, like good old fashioned [00:29:05] networking and, and, and being good to your customers and prospects. That stuff is, is still working. The more [00:29:10] people do that, um, the, there's, there's always upside there.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:29:15] Yeah. Sorry guys. I found out that. My dog was barking at the [00:29:20] actual delivery, not the delivery person. He kept barking because [00:29:25] they left the stuff on the front door.

Matt Amundson: Nice.

Craig Rosenberg: Actually, I, you know what, I'm gonna give him credit for [00:29:30] that.

Craig Rosenberg: Hey, I just wanted to go back on something and then let's, I'll go to your thing.

Craig Rosenberg: So I'm gonna make one point, which [00:29:35] is I wouldn't, like when Matt was talking about is definitive guide, that [00:29:40] is a demand gen asset though. Like I, I think it's different like what you were describing, which [00:29:45] is the. Right now with ai, people are just putting out content for the sake of content that [00:29:50] just doesn't work

Craig Rosenberg: they're trying to hit, whereas, I mean, Matt, I'm sure like for [00:29:55] example, that asset will be on your paid channels, right?

Craig Rosenberg: Or you know, yeah. So like [00:30:00] it's actually, that's not content for the sake of content. That's content for the sake of [00:30:05] demand, and you need to have something that will convert and something like that is gonna be interesting. Also, probably a [00:30:10] good press. Type social sharing t tidbits as well. Okay. [00:30:15] So, so that was one thing I don't, I think like you clarifying like content [00:30:20] for the sake of content's just not working.

Craig Rosenberg: You either go big or you go small. I think that [00:30:25] that makes a ton of sense. I, you know, the podcast or you can get people's faces in front of that, [00:30:30] that, that, that too, I think, um, is really important. The [00:30:35] events.

Craig Rosenberg: So.

Craig Rosenberg: we see the same thing like [00:30:40] the. Not necessarily, you know, if you do a big show, your side events are the ones where you [00:30:45] have to put the vast, like the unique sort of side event.

Craig Rosenberg: The thing [00:30:50] is really important, the dinners, we, I have a number of startups where like [00:30:55] dinners are their number one conversion. If you've understand your [00:31:00] market and you know, can bring the right people together, that stuff works [00:31:05] and like. Even for a series A company that has no marketing department, the, [00:31:10] that's their best thing. And

Craig Rosenberg: I'm frankly, really glad because if they had to go [00:31:15] figure out how to win on digital, like Matt's been doing this for 20 years, so like [00:31:20] figuring out digital for him, even though maybe he's not getting the numbers he got, he's still getting [00:31:25] numbers, man. Right? Because he's like, here's where we're gonna start and here's how I'm gonna test it and here's what I'm gonna [00:31:30] adjust and here's like, and so I'm, I'm really, I'm actually thankful because an [00:31:35] event. And anybody could do as long as, uh, you [00:31:40] know, they're, they're very precise about the ICP and the people [00:31:45] there. And, um, you know, in many cases the content that might be the value [00:31:50] add to those dinners. And now, man, I got, we got all these guys on the outside [00:31:55] doing dinners. I mean, we talked about AJ the other day.

Craig Rosenberg: He is been on the show, man, that, dude, I get emails from that guy [00:32:00] with four dinners a week. He's going off and I'm like, what does, do you ever have bad dinner? He's like, [00:32:05] no. Because if you bring the right people together, you know, these things work. So I love [00:32:10] that. Um, and I'm so glad that you said that.

Craig Rosenberg: Hopefully it'll be like a good snippet for everyone. [00:32:15] 'cause they gotta see that, that that's like the thing that's working for everyone.

Omar Akhtar: Yeah, it's [00:32:20] working. I mean, the simplest way I think about it is like, look man, if you paid for my dinner, I'll take your call. That's the least [00:32:25] I can do. Right. Um, having said that, um, [00:32:30] I have been to bad dinners and they, they get bad because, [00:32:35] um. If you start talking about your product before anyone's had a glass of wine, that you're dead in the [00:32:40] water.

Omar Akhtar: Like, don't, don't do that, but don't, don't talk about anything until people have had a bite to [00:32:45] eat or something to drink or, or are just a bit more relaxed. I think younger founders, if [00:32:50] they rush into it and they, they think that they have to get their stuff out immediately, it, it always fails. [00:32:55] And, and B um. I mean, I love my consultant friends, [00:33:00] but don't call 'em to, to the dinners because it's, uh, it's really tough [00:33:05] to, to sort of have a, a frank discussion if you think that the guy in [00:33:10] front of you is, uh, is going to pitch you. Quickly. So if, and if you happen to [00:33:15] show up and if you are a consultant, you show up there, uh, really just try to be personable and, [00:33:20] uh, and not pitch. And, you know, everyone has a good time and I think that that usually ends up [00:33:25] working better anyway. But, you know, are we allowed to swear on this

Omar Akhtar: podcast? I don't know.

Omar Akhtar: Yeah. [00:33:30] So

Omar Akhtar: I, I, I [00:33:35] was.

Craig Rosenberg: Is he gonna swear or not?

Omar Akhtar: I was [00:33:40] gonna talk about the ification of platforms and the, you know, [00:33:45] I can already foresee the ification of dinners, like [00:33:50] once the bros start talking about dinners, um, you know, and what they did and how they two x [00:33:55] something and they got AI to sort of create like a guest list from bubble. Like, [00:34:00] can we please have one thing that humans do? Organically and just let that [00:34:05] be the thing that they do to sort of form relationships. Um, so there, it's, it's ripe for [00:34:10] ification is, is what my point is.

Craig Rosenberg: That. Oh man. See now that, that's [00:34:15] a really good use of swear words.

Craig Rosenberg: The other one, the other dinner ruiner. [00:34:20] I do all those things resonate. Uh, is salesperson [00:34:25] dinner training

Craig Rosenberg: because

Craig Rosenberg: they.

Omar Akhtar: [00:34:30] Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:34:35] There are salespeople that really get it. They actually typically work with field marketing to put [00:34:40] on their dinners and they do a really good job.

Craig Rosenberg: Like literally, um, I've been to somewhere I don't [00:34:45] want to go, but I'm like, you guys did great. Like, um, and, um, [00:34:50] uh, but there's many where they don't get it and, and [00:34:55] they sort of make it a terrible experience for, for the guests.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, [00:35:00] and, um, you know, I don't, you know, we, there should be, that's a guide that one of the. [00:35:05] Event marketing platform should do is like, you know, [00:35:10] salesperson's like God. It's like, don't, you don't need to intercept. If you connect to people [00:35:15] that get along that night, they will remember that. You know, it's like what are the things that add [00:35:20] value, um, to that?

Craig Rosenberg: I mean, you know, they've, folks have tried for years on [00:35:25] booth behavior with, um, sales reps, like try to find that middle ground. It's like you can't [00:35:30] just sit there but you can't attack. Um, like dinner, dinner behavior [00:35:35] is, is another one where you can really ruin a dinner. But yeah, man, the ones that go right to [00:35:40] product, um, those are brutal.

Craig Rosenberg: Even by the way, I'm just gonna tell everyone, [00:35:45] so I've done this, I mean, you do this too. Matt does this too, where we go get asked to speak at a dinner.[00:35:50]

Craig Rosenberg: It's not because I'm speaking, but I can see

Craig Rosenberg: people squirming in the seat. [00:35:55] If you spend the first 10 minutes talking about yourself, you actually should [00:36:00] lead with the value. Um, and then you can do the, but like, man, [00:36:05] like the intro into, uh, you know, humble brag or not. [00:36:10] So, you know, like humble brag. It just, you can see people just going, what the [00:36:15] hell, you know, in their seat. So

Craig Rosenberg: just another thought on that. The, [00:36:20] uh, um, the dinner thing though, and the event thing is a big [00:36:25] deal. Um, you know, we do obviously a ton as. The VCs, if [00:36:30] the, the, the peer thing is really, if I look at like the ones that really [00:36:35] work, um, you know, it's all about getting the right people in the room [00:36:40] together and, and then, you know, the rest is magic. You know, it frankly doesn't even matter what [00:36:45] I, I used to do. Matt, remember when I used to do, you did this one with me too.

Craig Rosenberg: What's [00:36:50] that place in San Mateo? On the corner, the German place.

Matt Amundson: Oh, yeah. Uh, it's [00:36:55] closing.

Craig Rosenberg: What? Throw an event there.

Craig Rosenberg: But anyway, they [00:37:00] have this upstairs. Nobody does events there. I remember and like, I'm like, no, we are, we're gonna take over the [00:37:05] upstairs. And it's like, it was just people hanging out. It was all demand gen people. 'cause [00:37:10] Matt and I were doing an event right

Craig Rosenberg: up at the Hyatt or something and so we just brought, and everyone was [00:37:15] having a blast, you know, and it's like, that's not high end. They could go there at [00:37:20] any time. But, you know, just being around the people. Alright, so that's great. Um, any other [00:37:25] things that you. Found from like the what the good companies are doing today that we might [00:37:30] learn from.

Omar Akhtar: Um, you know, there's the stuff that the data says and it's sort of, you [00:37:35] can parse out some of that stuff, but I think the, the thing that I just kind of remind everybody is [00:37:40] that, uh, you, you, if you don't have a product, you. [00:37:45] There's no amount of marketing that's going to sell. And so, you know, there's, there's this, [00:37:50] we've been, I've been to a couple of events now where a bunch of CMOs have gotten together and it's, [00:37:55] there's a lot of sort of. Um, shoe gazing around what's the role of [00:38:00] CMOs and what they have to do. And I, and I feel really empathetic in the sense that, look, [00:38:05] this is, most of this is not your fault. Um, and the good companies are good companies because [00:38:10] they do a bunch of things, right, not just the marketing. Right. Um, and that are just [00:38:15] the product. And, um, so what I'm. I, I don't have the answer on this, [00:38:20] but what I'm teasing out in the next set of research that I do, which is on, um, marketing [00:38:25] headcount and marketing reporting structures, is to find out, uh, are the better companies [00:38:30] doing something different in the way that they've organized their marketing teams and who their CMOs are reporting to? Is the [00:38:35] ch, is the CRO really a thing? Like, is that, uh, you know, going to [00:38:40] be something different in, in the way that we operate? Is marketing and sales gonna be combined into this one, [00:38:45] um, single metric? Those are the things I'm looking at. Uh, in terms of just simplifying [00:38:50] what are the better companies doing differently, honestly, they're just, they're just doing more [00:38:55] and they're spending more and, uh, and they're spending on the growth channels.

Omar Akhtar: And, um, that's the best I [00:39:00] could say from the data, not anecdote data. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. I mean, like I. Was ex, you [00:39:05] know, 'cause we met the other day. I was telling Mark, he's like, well, you know, like, what do you do with that data? I'm

Craig Rosenberg: like, I'll [00:39:10] tell you exactly what a CMO does with, uh, Omar's data.

Craig Rosenberg: They go to the next board meeting and [00:39:15] say, I need more money to do this. Mean. Matt and I, I don't know who we're talking to the [00:39:20] other day, but like, uh, trying to figure it out on the demand side costs money.

Craig Rosenberg: You're [00:39:25] gonna

Craig Rosenberg: have to pay to lose.

Craig Rosenberg: And like, and so we're in this [00:39:30] crazy time because I get it. I, you know, I, I'm supporting folks that are on the board side. It's like, [00:39:35] you know, when I talk to them, what do you want me to do? You know,

Craig Rosenberg: like, we can't, [00:39:40] like, we, we have to figure this out. But you, I love what you said originally, which is like [00:39:45] efficiency versus spending to grow.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, those things are kind [00:39:50] of separate. Um, and Matt, you know, was talking about how like. The [00:39:55] way people have to approach it today is like a, it's a, you know, your

Craig Rosenberg: odds of not doing well [00:40:00] are

Craig Rosenberg: much higher than you're actually, you know, being able to figure it out. It's just, it's a crazy [00:40:05] time.

Matt Amundson: the I think the advice that I try to give everybody, uh, is, is [00:40:10] nail the table stakes well, and then, and then experiment and I think like the thing that I see. [00:40:15] So often, and we own goal ourselves all the time as well, [00:40:20] is people just don't do the table stake stuff that well anymore. People don't make great landing pages.

Matt Amundson: [00:40:25] People don't do ads. Well, people, um, people don't do email [00:40:30] nurture like. At all anymore. And, you know, emails can be annoying, but they can [00:40:35] also be like a very easy way to create some brand awareness and a very, uh, inexpensive way to create brand [00:40:40] awareness. If you do that well, if you don't ask for much back from the prospects, you're just like feeding them [00:40:45] value.

Matt Amundson: Hey, you know, we did this research report. Here's one key finding, or here's a theme [00:40:50] and three bullet points that you might find interesting. Uh, if you just provide people with [00:40:55] value and they're like, Hmm, it's a cool company. You know, they don't ask, they're not asking me to, you [00:41:00] know, give them my email address and, you know, my, the last four digits of my social security number [00:41:05] to see a, a demo or anything.

Matt Amundson: Like, I think if you do that stuff well it, and, [00:41:10] and you let it just run on an automation, then it gives you the opportunity to do some really cool [00:41:15] experimentation and that's where your brand is really going to, uh, you know, [00:41:20] sort of materialize in the fun and exciting stuff that you do that. [00:41:25] Maybe you won't always have the same budget for it's gonna, you know, you gotta experiment and you gotta see if it works.

Matt Amundson: And if [00:41:30] it works, great. Let, let's double down there. Um, but, but man, I talk to [00:41:35] so many people who are like, yeah, we've never even started doing email marketing, or we use just a single [00:41:40] landing page for everything. Or, you know, we've got one ad running, we have one BDR [00:41:45] email sequence. Uh, and it's not all that effective, right?

Matt Amundson: Like, so I [00:41:50] think people are in such a rush to try to. Be the next lovable or be the next [00:41:55] cursor that they're like trying all these kind of interesting, [00:42:00] newfangled, crazy ai, uh, marketing, uh, activities and they just don't [00:42:05] do the baseline stuff well or at all.

Omar Akhtar: You know, um, I, I, and I [00:42:10] wanna get your thoughts on this, Matt. I had this theory that, um, if you go outside

Omar Akhtar: of [00:42:15] Silicon Valley or B2B SaaS marketing, the, it's, it's like the Fortune 500 big [00:42:20] companies or, or even just companies that aren't selling tech, they figured out the basics really well.

Omar Akhtar: [00:42:25] They're actually not that great on the tactical stuff, but the basics of marketing 1 0 [00:42:30] 1, they're pretty good at,

Omar Akhtar: and in Silicon Valley, it's kind of flipped. There's [00:42:35] people are technically very good. They can set up like personalized landing pages in a day, et cetera, whatever it is, [00:42:40] but they haven't figured out the basics just yet.

Omar Akhtar: And the perfect marketer would be right in the middle of both of

Omar Akhtar: those [00:42:45] things. And I feel like it's a dying breed, um, because so many people are coming [00:42:50] out. Uh, you know, if you think about the marketers that are now VPs of marketing who, who started marketing in the [00:42:55] last five years, they started in demand gen. They never had to do anything re you know, [00:43:00] positioning or, or just like, what are you gonna say? And it kind of shows. Um, [00:43:05] so I, I, I think that's a really, really great call out. Just do the basics. The basics still work and, and [00:43:10] the hacks are, are kind of gravy, but that's not the thing that we should focus on.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. And I think [00:43:15] hacks by their very nature aren't scalable. They're not sustainable. Uh, and you know, if, if [00:43:20] you're gonna be reliant upon that, you've always gotta come up with re fresh, new creative ideas that [00:43:25] work. 'cause if they don't work, you definitely got a board and a CEO to go answer to.

Omar Akhtar: [00:43:30] I have to ask you, are your, is, is, is your, and you, you are not gonna tell me this, but [00:43:35] have you gotten like an investor or a CEO who saying, Hey, I saw this kid in India who hacked [00:43:40] like clay and now automates like five different systems together. Why can't we do the same thing [00:43:45] over here? Are you getting conversations like

Matt Amundson: I mean, I've been sitting in board meetings since 2015, so the [00:43:50] last 10 years, and I would say at least one in three. There's a conversation that's like that. [00:43:55] It was growth hacks, then it was ai, then it was like. [00:44:00] Uh, you know, um, are we using Digital Turks? And then it [00:44:05] was like, and now it's, you know, are, are we working with these offshore people to do something with [00:44:10] clay?

Omar Akhtar: hmm. Clay, gosh, can we talk about clay for a second?

Omar Akhtar: Um, [00:44:15] okay. Just, yeah. And so here's the thing. Here's my thing with Clay. I. Do not know [00:44:20] what Clay does. I, I, I, I'm happy to admit this, I do not know what Clay does, but [00:44:25] man, am I impressed with their marketing in the sense that they are everywhere I know [00:44:30] about them. I, I love, love their logo, love their brand. They're doing something right [00:44:35] except telling me what they do, and no one can tell me. Either, and [00:44:40] that's really, it's one of those things that just ruins my view of the world is like, how can they be good at [00:44:45] marketing if I don't know what they do, but something's working there.

Omar Akhtar: I want to know what you guys think.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:44:50] Well, something's working there

Craig Rosenberg: that I can tell you. I, I do. Well, I would [00:44:55] say, look, I and I, I just had a conversation this morning about their marketing. [00:45:00] A lot of AI, by the

Craig Rosenberg: way, in, in their production here, but like, [00:45:05] they have done both, they've done, they've built an army of folks that are. [00:45:10] Like, you know, Matt worked at Marketo.

Craig Rosenberg: Like the folks that put were able to [00:45:15] put, I can use Marketo on their resume, was

Craig Rosenberg: part of the marketing,

Craig Rosenberg: [00:45:20] right? Because they became Marketo experts and like this is what they did. And Clay's got, I mean, we've got [00:45:25] these like, you know, I'm pretty sure every kid trying to hack [00:45:30] demand in Brooklyn uses Clay.

Craig Rosenberg: And so, and that sort of builds on [00:45:35] itself.

Craig Rosenberg: And so you've got both. Highly effective marketing. [00:45:40] I mean, you should have heard the negotiations I had with their team on having 'em speak at our [00:45:45] summit. It was like they were, they were in a good way. By the way.

Craig Rosenberg: Everyone listen. They were like, well, what [00:45:50] if we did this? Oh, and we can also do this. We can also do that.

Craig Rosenberg: And they were all great offers. And the way I kept [00:45:55] turning 'em down, I ended up doing more than what I wanted with them. And it was great. But [00:46:00] like, uh, so I actually think with them, you've got these guys who are [00:46:05] addicted to it. Um, that are pushing it, you know, up and then you've got, coming [00:46:10] from the top, a halo from really good, uh, marketing.

Craig Rosenberg: Now, in [00:46:15] terms of you not knowing what they do, I'd love to help you, but like, [00:46:20] it is a good point. I'm not sure I could do it. I mean, but, but you know, we, uh, [00:46:25] you know, we use a bit of it. Um, you know, a lot of my portfolio companies use it. [00:46:30] Then, um, they often say, Hey, I wanna try it, and then they try it and then they go find [00:46:35] someone who teaches them and they become friends and they just kind of keep playing with it until [00:46:40] they, um, you know, become sort of, I don't know what the Clay-gents is that [00:46:45] what, or, you know, whatever they want to call it.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh,

Craig Rosenberg: So,

Craig Rosenberg: I mean,

Craig Rosenberg: I think it's an interesting topic [00:46:50] just because

Craig Rosenberg: they've done. Uh, the sort of groundswell of building an army as [00:46:55] well as, uh, doing marketing as well. I, I, that, that would be my analysis of the [00:47:00] marketing. The, the fact that you're, you know, you don't know what they do still. [00:47:05] I think that's, I think that's interesting actually.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:47:10] I. Uh, you know, I used to make fun of salesforce.com, the name, [00:47:15] and it's an amazing name because you know

Craig Rosenberg: exactly what they do.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, but look, dude, my [00:47:20] mom used to go, Hey, Craig, is SAP a good company? And, [00:47:25] you know, I'd be like, mom, do you mean SAP? She's like, oh, yeah, yeah, that one. [00:47:30] And the brand had sort of, you know, sort of

Craig Rosenberg: hit her.

Craig Rosenberg: But [00:47:35] anyway, I don't know, Matt, if you, what your thoughts are on that.

Matt Amundson: I think Clay has done the one thing [00:47:40] that a lot of sales and MarTech companies kind of wish they could [00:47:45] still do. But like I, I would say SalesLoft and Outreach did this really [00:47:50] well. Marketo and um, and HubSpot did this really well. I don't think [00:47:55] Pardot or Eloqua did this very well, is like they got people to talk about them a lot.

Matt Amundson: [00:48:00] You know, and I mean, and what does it do? I mean, gosh, it's, it's a modern [00:48:05] ZoomInfo, right? Like for like, you know, it's just a, it's, it's a data provider. Uh, they've [00:48:10] got some, like, I don't know, some cool tables and stuff like that originally. Like, [00:48:15] um, I mean, do, do they need my help? I don't [00:48:20] think they need my help.

Craig Rosenberg: A good.

Matt Amundson: Yeah,

Matt Amundson: [00:48:25] exactly. Uh, but that's, they have, they, they, you know, at a time, I think when there [00:48:30] wasn't very much interesting sales or MarTech happening, they were kind of the one thing that was really [00:48:35] interesting. And they got pretty wide adoption, very fast. Um, they were very cool [00:48:40] with like the, the like. Sales hackery type people, the [00:48:45] growth hackery type people, uh, and then, you know, just growth people in general.

Matt Amundson: [00:48:50] Uh, and then, you know, they, as they evolved, they made the product very easy to use. Um. [00:48:55] So I think, um, I don't know, I think lightning in a [00:49:00] bottle a little bit right place, right time, a little bit. Um, their marketing is definitely [00:49:05] great. Um, but I don't, like, I think about their marketing less [00:49:10] than I think about just the sheer volume of people who will text me and be like, Hey, do you use Clay?

Matt Amundson: And I say, yes. And [00:49:15] they're like, Hey, would you mind like, helping me out with how you're using it? Right? So. [00:49:20] I haven't, I haven't gotten, you know, that much, uh, you know, [00:49:25] request for information from my peers on a, on a tool since, you know, probably, [00:49:30] you know, the Marketo days.

Craig Rosenberg: No sales. I mean, you were like a, a SalesLoft,[00:49:35]

Craig Rosenberg: uh, outreach. Yeah. On that, both of those that you mentioned,

Craig Rosenberg: those are great examples. [00:49:40] Uh, Omar, were you, when you were breathing, were you trying to react or

Matt Amundson: [00:49:45] No, he is just trying to stay alive.

Omar Akhtar: No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, [00:49:50] no, I think it's just fascinating and I, and I wonder if I should carve out some time to do research [00:49:55] that's just about clay. Like I just put out a research paper saying, this is why Clay is [00:50:00] everywhere. This is what they're doing. And, and, and. Some, because I think it's, it's a fascinating case study [00:50:05] that, um, that, you know, if you, you talk about it, it's not like this life-changing [00:50:10] product, but people love it and why do they love it and why are they talking about it and what's this FOMO that they're [00:50:15] creating amongst everyone?

Omar Akhtar: I, I, it's a fascinating case study, um, uh, to look at and I'd love to sort of [00:50:20] go dig into that.

Craig Rosenberg: All right. I'll give you guys another one that I think both of these

Craig Rosenberg: [00:50:25] relate to everything you're talking about in terms of what works. But how about this? The [00:50:30] survivor of the last sales tech revolution is gong.

Matt Amundson: [00:50:35] Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Holy shit. I, I, they made it through [00:50:40] and like, um,

Craig Rosenberg: they, they're, they're still, they haven't stopped and there's so many [00:50:45] options, like, is that brand.

Omar Akhtar: I think a big [00:50:50] part of it is brand. I think Udi Ledergor is a very smart marketer and [00:50:55] um, and there's a lot of lessons to be learned from Gong and I think it, it, part of it is also [00:51:00] they got big quickly at a time when there was that need, kind of like what Matt was talking about. [00:51:05] There was a big dip in sort of exciting sales tech products and they kind of all came [00:51:10] out at the same time.

Omar Akhtar: And, and I do believe Gong staying power is, is very [00:51:15] much due to brand. They managed to do some really great, um, you know, some of the stuff that I don't even know. And I just heard [00:51:20] just from watching Udi talk about like billboard takeovers and. Things that you wouldn't sort of [00:51:25] necessarily asso associate with SaaS marketing, but Guerilla Marketing. Um, I thought that was smart and, [00:51:30] and more than anything else, I think they have a fantastic presence in terms of their people. When we talk [00:51:35] about, like charismatic individuals talking about the, the brand online, I think they do, they [00:51:40] have a, a few folks that that, you know, I, they that come across my feed and [00:51:45] so, and people generally seem to love using them. Uh, all those things. [00:51:50] Definitely I think incumbents. Get to where they are because they have a very strong brand [00:51:55] presence and they occupy so much mind share.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt, do you.

Matt Amundson: I do. I mean, I think [00:52:00] almost every conversation that we've had today about content and brand you [00:52:05] could map to the growth of gong. You know, gong started off [00:52:10] with, you know, by putting out [00:52:15] statistics that only they had, they had data that was unique to their business. [00:52:20] We've listened to X many calls and like, these are the four things that you can say that [00:52:25] will increase your likelihood to win a deal by 70%.

Matt Amundson: And the counter to that, these are the [00:52:30] four things that you say that will kill a deal, right? Like. Or lab's [00:52:35] content during that time period is legendary. And I think it was just, [00:52:40] you know, really, really smart marketing. And then that grew [00:52:45] into this brand where like, you know, we, we've had other guests on the show that will tell you like, you [00:52:50] know, gong is not, you know, the, the way they positioned themselves is like, they [00:52:55] weren't sales tech, they were truth.

Matt Amundson: You know, [00:53:00] and like that I thought was fantastic. 'cause it is what it is. It's like, here's a recording of the calls. [00:53:05] Like, and that's a, you know, that, that was such a clever way to elevate what they were [00:53:10] doing because we all spend all day, every day trying to get to the [00:53:15] truth by building reports, by reading content.

Matt Amundson: Like what Omar creates, like what is the [00:53:20] truth? And you know, how, how do we get there? And they were just like, yeah, we have it. It's recorded. Don't [00:53:25] have time to listen to it. We summarized it. Don't have time to learn anything for it. We'll give you the trends, [00:53:30] want to, you know, quickly analyze, you know, the last hundred conversations and find out, you [00:53:35] know, what people's primary pain point was or why they didn't advance.

Matt Amundson: We've got all that information. [00:53:40] It's just

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, let's do an ode to John Miller on that one. 'cause he said the [00:53:45] best content you could create. Is data that you can only get from your [00:53:50] product.

Omar Akhtar: Yep.

Craig Rosenberg: How about that John Miller?

Craig Rosenberg: There we [00:53:55] go. All right guys. That

Craig Rosenberg: was a killer show. Yeah, [00:54:00] dude, you're, you're good, Omar. You're

Craig Rosenberg: good with that. Hang. But next [00:54:05] time like the, maybe we capitalize on the leather pants thing.

Matt Amundson: Let's go deeper

Matt Amundson: there. I'd love to [00:54:10] go deeper there. Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: A deep dive,

Craig Rosenberg: deep dive, a new show type.

Craig Rosenberg: We do deep [00:54:15] dives into things like leather pants. But,

Craig Rosenberg: um, anyway, man, I,

Craig Rosenberg: [00:54:20] dude, uh, you're going to do big things. It's really

Craig Rosenberg: exciting to, uh, yeah. [00:54:25] And, uh, I'm glad we were able to put you on the show and, um, and showcase you. [00:54:30] So, um, this was, this was perfect for me.

Omar Akhtar: I, I had an absolute blast. Thank [00:54:35] you so much for having me on. I, I am, I'm shocked that it's actually over. I was like, oh. I feel like we just

Omar Akhtar: started. [00:54:40] Uh, thank you so much. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: it did go fast.

Craig Rosenberg: I, and just so [00:54:45] everyone, a quick update, the Costco man came and delivered [00:54:50] $500 worth of alcohol and a Caesar salad. Um, and the [00:54:55] poor guy probably got barked at, and then the Costco goods actually got barked at by [00:55:00] my dog, so that's why we did that. So, um, yeah. There you go.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:55:05] Alright guys,

Craig Rosenberg: let's take the rest of the day off.

Craig Rosenberg: Let's go.

Matt Amundson: All right.

Craig Rosenberg: great.

Thanks for joining [00:55:10] us for another episode of the Transaction, Craig, and I really appreciate the fact that you've listened all the [00:55:15] way to the end. What are you actually doing here? For show notes and other episodes, please visit [00:55:20] us@thetransactionpod.com, like and subscribe on Spotify, apple Podcast [00:55:25] or any other place you get your podcast from.[00:55:30]

Either you have walked away from your podcast device. Or this [00:55:35] is playing somewhere in the background. Someone in your house would really like for you to shut this off [00:55:40] [00:55:45] [00:55:50] now.