The Transaction

TT - 046 - Michael King
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[00:00:00]

Craig Rosenberg: By the way, because the the hat theme seems to do well on

Michael King: Oh, oh,

Craig Rosenberg: according to matt. I but I needed something unique.

So I This is like my brothers from his 20s when he

Matt Amundson: Is that a

Craig Rosenberg: a visor You

Matt Amundson: visor over headphones?

Craig Rosenberg: Well, how about, I guess I take it off. Alright, hold on, hold on. Let me do this correctly.

Matt Amundson: Give me the spurrier. Give me the spurrier now.[00:01:00]

Craig Rosenberg: There we go, look at that. It's better with the, I mean, this is, this feels like, this is going viral. What do you think?

Michael King: I think you need to start playing, calling some calls, some audibles or something out

Craig Rosenberg: Oh man, the uh, people don't, does Lane Kiffin wear the visor now? Uh,

Matt Amundson: I don't,

Craig Rosenberg: I mean, that'd suck, yeah, I,

Michael King: doubt it.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, that seems like him. Alright, so, so what do you guys, well actually, so, yeah, this was the quote unquote hat that I grabbed.

Matt Amundson: Nice. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: The cowboy hat, the cowboy hat, uh, clip seemed to do great, so,

Matt Amundson: comp, Compton hats are, are burning up the, uh, they're burning up the airwaves too. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: we should put links and try to get some affiliate traffic going with some of the hat where yeah I think that'd be great

Sam Guertin: I'll get right on that.

Craig Rosenberg: All right, so we [00:02:00] ready to go we're ready to go we're ready to go shall Yeah, we're rolling.

​

Craig Rosenberg: Um, all right. So Matt, um, I, I meant to talk to you. Like I was thinking like this year we mix up the intros and, and like we do, do you want to do today? Kick today off.

Matt Amundson: would I ever.

Michael King: Oh, you would see my guy.

I'm a,

Craig Rosenberg: I was like, well, I didn't tell him that I get on.

I'm like, but it'll be pretty excited to do it. So, uh, I'm going to just try not to hit my desk. So Sam doesn't have to cut it out. We'll go from there.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. So [00:03:00] today we are joined by the man, the myth, the legend, uh, there are, uh, so many great marketers that I've met over the course of my career. And literally there's this tie that binds all of them together. Uh, and that is Michael King, who has been in recruiting as long as I've been in the Valley and has placed some of the most successful marketers.

Uh, really up and down kind of the hierarchy chain, uh, over the course of, of the 15 years that I've been here. Uh, and I know he's been doing it since before I got here. And, uh, I can remember the first time just sort of meeting him. Uh, he was like at the Marketo office and I was like, you know, someday.

Someday I'm going to work with that guy. Someday that's, that's going to be me. Uh, but you know, he's helped staff some of the most successful companies here in Silicon Valley and outside of the valley, mostly in tech. Um, he is always been a resource for me. And I know a lot of my peers, when people are thinking about what's [00:04:00] next for them in their careers and what's the state of the market, um, He is just one heck of a guy.

He lives in Seattle, but you might as well live here in Silicon Valley because every time I turn around, he's here, uh, and he's having, uh, you know, he's doing something a little bit different. Now he's, he's releasing a book. And so, you know, for all the wonderful things that he's done for, for, for me, uh, along the path, as well as for many of my, for me, Uh, my, my peers, uh, I wanted to have him on the show today, talk a little bit about recruiting, building great organizations and kind of the state of the market, but also get an opportunity to learn a little bit about what you are releasing this April.

So ladies and gentlemen, listeners of the transaction, welcome Michael King.

Michael King: wow, I mean, you. Thank you.

Matt Amundson: You're welcome. You're

Craig Rosenberg: That was a really good intro. Can we just, let's let the, let's, let's put the, let's get the, bring the elephant out in the room here. Just [00:05:00] tell us the book. That's not like, let's just, let's just get release date. All that's yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. That's a great book cover. My

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Michael King: Well, I found

Craig Rosenberg: Let's say I'm jump in and say currently the guest is presenting the book cover.

Um, for those listening.

Sam Guertin: That was one time.

Craig Rosenberg: Tell us about the book real quick. Let's just get that out of the way real quick because I think that's awesome, man. You should be so proud of yourself. Awesome.

Michael King: Well, uh, out of the urging of my wife in 2020, she told me to tell my story. Um, I haven't shared it with really anybody. So I grew up in San Francisco, moved to LA in 91 out of nowhere, uh, watching a Final Four NCAA basketball championship game with, uh, my roommate and two buddies. We'll just say I started acting out of character.

Hmm. a woman who I just started dating who, I mean, at the time I was bartending at the Hard Rock in LA and [00:06:00] Um, that's where I met a lot of my, uh, female friends, we'll say. Um, so, met her, and I describe in the book how we met, which was, uh, a very interesting way. But we just started dating, and we went out a couple times, and told me, like, Why did you do that?

Why did you do that? I had no clue what she was talking about. Um, my roommate and her did a little intervention. Told me I needed to go see a doctor, that I was acting out of character. Of course, I was in denial. I didn't believe him. Finally, I went to go see a doctor, then a neurologist, did a bunch of tests, and they told me I had epilepsy,

Matt Amundson: Wow.

Michael King: which was shocking.

Um, I thought, it wasn't the epilepsy grand mals. So what I had were, I would clap my hands and make weird noises. So if someone saw it, they probably thought I was crazy or on drugs. So it's called complex partial seizures. So it's just, you react, you could flap your lips, you could clap, you could do anything.

And [00:07:00] you're out of it for 10, 15 seconds, maybe another 10 seconds to come back, but you have no idea what just happened. So, I went through five years, we'll just say, of, of hell, of trying to control this. Sure. Hmm. of darkest. Uh, a lot of why me, what did I do to get this happen to me, hopelessness, all those things.

And then one day I talked to my doctor at Cedars. And so there's got to be something. The medication wasn't working. There's got to be something. And so I did all the tests at UCLA, um, to see if I was a candidate for surgery. Uh, did the, did two surgeries. The final surgery they performed was the first time they had ever performed this surgery.

And the hope, the hope was To lessen the seizures. I was having sometimes two, three a day of just doing that randomly. Um, so the surgery was the end of 98, beginning of 99 when I got home, I had a couple seizures, which was scary because [00:08:00] they were completely different. I was doing completely different things.

And I was thinking, great, now I had seizure, I had surgery and now I'm doing something completely different. And, but then they lessened it and they stopped and knock on wood. Um, I haven't had a seizure since 1999.

Matt Amundson: Wow. Holy moly.

Michael King: I kept it to myself. Um, the urging of my wife told me to share. And then my, again, I was a bartender.

She was working at the Cheesecake. Um, we wanted kids. The doctor said you could have kids. Boom, she got pregnant right away. And we were, we were like, oh shit. We both are working at night. How do we have a kid? And, you know, my dad always said, go get your degree. I went to St. Mary's, got my business degree, but you know, I was in LA, I was chasing, trying to be an actor.

I was writing scripts. I was just trying to do anything. Um, but I knew I had to get a daytime job. I'd had always been a bartender. I had no clue what I wanted to do.

Um, I'm a golfer. I've been playing golf since 10 years old. [00:09:00] And when I was at the hard rock, there was four of us who used to play golf all the time.

And. Over the years we lost contact. And then one day I was with another buddy, went up to Griffin Park in LA to go play golf. Um, walked in, checked in, was walking out and this door started open. So being the nice guy, I opened the door and two guys walked in. The last guy walked in was a fellow bartender from the Hard Rock who I hadn't seen in years.

Matt Amundson: Mm hmm.

Michael King: And I'm like, dude, what's up? What have you been doing? You still bartending? He goes, no, I'm a recruiter. At the time, I had no idea. I go, for the Army, the Navy, the what? A recruiter?

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Michael King: don't know what and he goes, yeah, no, no, no, no, it was two guys. It's a little company in Santa Monica. They go find the, the, the clients and me and another guy, we, we find the candidates and we put them in companies in Silicon Valley. All right. You know, after surgery and really not working a lot, I mean, we, I was so far in debt, it was crazy. That's all the brain surgeries and all that. I just need to make money. [00:10:00] And so I was like, you make it any money? He goes, I'm going to make a hundred grand this year. And I was like, Oh shit. Fast forward three months later, I started working there.

So the first half of the book is the epilepsy journey. The second half is how this random person I met who I hadn't seen in years, I jumped into the recruiting. So I take you from the craziness of joining in the end of it, 98, 99, to the dot bomb blowing up, to moving to Seattle, then all the ups and downs, but also with the The backstory of will I have another surge, uh, seizure and some risky things I did, uh, during that time that my, I never told my wife and she almost killed me when she found out and just, um, some great fun stories of, you know, I'll just share success factors.

I'm sure you're all familiar with. I mean, I, I worked with them. They didn't even have an office yet. Um, that's how I met Rob Bernstein. Uh, [00:11:00] he was at Siebel. He was a senior product marketing guy. First time I reached out, tried to put him somewhere in 03 and we just hit it off. And then he let me know in 04, he goes, yeah, I'm going to this company called Success Factors.

I'm like, Oh. Now I never, I started typing. He goes, no, no, no. I go, what? He goes, don't look at the website. It's terrible. I'm like, all right. And then literally it was like days later, uh, product manager, who I had tried to put at a company called Calidus and his name was Randy Reynolds. And then Randy reached out and, and he said, Hey, I just want to give you an update.

I'm like, cool. What's going on? He goes, Oh man, I'm just the first product management hire at this little, little startup. We don't even have an office. I'm like, cool. What's the name? He goes, success factors. I'm like, What the hell? I go, Bernstein. He goes, yeah. So they introduced me to the CFO at the time that was doing recruiting.

And, um, I put his name's Roger Goulard. If you've never heard of him, he's the magic touch guy. So I met him [00:12:00] back in 2000 at Broadvision. He's VP Biz Dev Alliance guy. So he left that company and went to a little, a little software company in the early 2000s. You've maybe heard of Salesforce. He was the first VP of BizDev there.

So, I was working on a director of BizDev Alliances for this company, SuccessFactors. And I'm like, that guy's gonna know a good director.

Matt Amundson: yeah,

Michael King: So I set up some time to chat, and we were just catching up. And I said, hey, you know, I need to pick your brain, man. Do you know anybody for this? And he goes, what's the company?

I go, SuccessFactors. He goes, oh. I'm like, what do you mean, oh? You've heard of them? And he goes, yeah. I was like, oh, okay. And then he goes, you know, I know somebody. And so I got my pen ready. I'm like, okay, who? He goes, me. I'm like, what? I go, dude, you're a VP. He goes, well, do you want to do the intro or do you want me to?

I'll go, really? He goes, yeah. Boom. Introduced them. They made him the VP. And after [00:13:00] that talking about a glorious career. So he went success factors all the way through the IPO. They got acquired. And then he jumped over to Okta. Little, super, super small, still like first guy. Went there for a couple of years.

Then Rob Bernstein had went to, uh, Coupa as their CEO, first time CEO in oh nine, then brought Roger over there super early and in 2021, Coupa stock was 360 bucks a share.

Matt Amundson: yeah,

Michael King: then Roger, more or less retired. So he had, I mean, just the timing in which, you know, we all know it's, you join these little startups, you have no idea.

But man, that guy's got, you know, from, from Salesforce. Success Factors, Okta, Coupa, and earlier at Broadvision, which was a hot company in the late

90s.

Craig Rosenberg: I remember.

Michael King: Yeah. So I just tell those kind of, you know, fun stories of Silicon Valley. there's [00:14:00] lots of, lots of fun stories of that. And of course, you know, this is my fourth downturn.

So, you know, you deal with the downturns and you think, are they ever going to come back? And then the pandemic, like, oh shit, you know, what's going to happen with the pandemic. And my biggest thing was, as you said, Matt. All my companies have always been in Silicon Valley. There's no need for me to know anybody outside Silicon Valley because you had to go into an office.

Matt Amundson: yeah,

Michael King: And so towards late, late 2020, when companies were hiring again, they'd reach out and said, okay, we want to re engage on that search. I'm like, okay. He goes, we've been talking. We're not in an office. We're all virtual. We want to start looking for people outside the Bay area because they're yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

no, you just know people inside the barrier.

I'm like, oh no, no, yeah, yeah, sure. I know P I had no fucking clue. I knew nobody. And I'm like, sure. And

Matt Amundson: I, got this Boise talent pool for you,

no problem,

Michael King: shit. So yeah. So I just had to jump and [00:15:00] start, you know, networking with all people outside the bear. So that was the biggest, biggest hurdle, you know, but then like 2021 was by far the craziest, busiest year ever.

I mean, it was. And that's why we are where we are right now is is everybody was just hiring like crazy Uh not thinking that wow Yes, we got 50 million and we just hired all these people but the product's not moving people aren't buying it boom layoffs Now all these people, you know, we're looking that got crazy titles so many people I I spoke with that you know, I look at their background their vp of uh, Say product marketing demand gen and their previous role was a director at a company.

I'd never heard of

Matt Amundson: yep.

Michael King: And I'm like, so what, what are we looking for? And, oh, BP, I got to keep a BP. What's the comp? And they'll throw out a crazy number. And I'm thinking, that ain't happening. But, you know, now they're competing with A [00:16:00] players. And they, they, you know, they're really struggling because in 2021 companies couldn't be picky.

Now, God, you know, they're all looking for the unicorn. They're like, oh, let's just keep waiting. More people are going to get laid off.

Matt Amundson: yeah, yeah

Craig Rosenberg: wow,

Matt Amundson: Crazy, what a, what a, ride it's been, what a ride it's been.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah, that's uh, I mean that, that sounds like, I mean honestly I was, I was gripped just listening to the story, um, and

Michael King: that's the, you know, people that have, yeah, people have read the manuscript, like you see all the quotes on my website and I've shared and those people have read it and it's all been, I mean, I'm very blessed, like, uh, I don't know if you guys follow comedy, but George Wallace, the comedian George Wallace.

Yeah, yeah. So George, very well known comedian. He was Jerry Seinfeld's best man at his wedding. He's best friends with Jerry. Uh, George was the best man at my wedding.

Matt Amundson: Whoa Yeah. So we met when I moved. I [00:17:00] how, how, how, happen, I don't, wait hold on a sec, so we went, yeah, yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, yeah,

Matt Amundson: yeah, yeah, let's pull back salt, uh, exploratory, uh, experimental surgery, incredible career, Octus success factor, George Wallace, best man of wedding. I, what, what just happened? That

Michael King: hey, how, how, how long do you want this podcast to go, man? I got tons of stories. Um, no, I met him in LA when I moved to LA, I moved to LA. I had to go take a class. I'd take a commercial class. I walked in, sat next to this guy. We just started chatting. He said he was a comedian. There was a, uh, his name's Craig Shoemaker.

He's another comedian. That's very well known out there. He was in our class. You know, and they're all getting, everyone's getting started and he's like, yeah, I'm a comedian. I'm like, okay, cool. And then, um, one day he said, Hey, you want to run around with me? I'm going to the improv, the comedy store. I'm like, sure.

And then, you know, I'm meeting all these other comedians and he gets on stage. I'm like, God damn. He's good. And then all of a sudden he goes on the tonight show and just became [00:18:00] close friends. And so when, when I decided, uh, my wife and I were going to get married in Vegas, when we were We were there. I'm like, okay, there's only one person that, you know, cause he, when I was in the hospital, he was somebody, when I was, his timing was impeccable.

When I was at the lowest of lows, all of a sudden, there'd be a knock on the door and, hey, MK, and I'd look and it's him. And I'm like, oh, perfect

timing. wow So, man. Oh, wow. All right. So you've got a million stories. I,

we haven't even touched, I was gonna say, we haven't even touched about my stories working at the Hard Rock in LA. That's like another three hour

Craig Rosenberg: Well, we might, we might start another podcast, like just to talk about those. Uh, but, uh, so. I'm just jumping in because this is the MAT feature enhancement 2. 1 of the transaction.

Matt Amundson: Thank you.

Craig Rosenberg: So can you, with the million stories we asked the guests, like, give us [00:19:00] like an amazing go to market story. Could be sales, marketing, etc.

Could be Uh, funny. It could be heroic, you know, it could be, you know, whatever, but like, we just want to lead with like, uh, one of your favorite go to market stories. So, uh, I can imagine based on the conversation we just had, you're going to have to go into the data bank and the million you've got. But, uh, let's, let's, uh, let's start there.

Michael King: Well, I would have to say, if you want to call this the, the, one of the greatest branding or getting recognition of a company was Miss

Maria that.

So Maria at Aptis, I'll, I will

Matt Amundson: it in the

Craig Rosenberg: Yes. Here

Michael King: I will,

Craig Rosenberg: my girl.

Michael King: well, I met, I met Maria in 09 when John hired her as a consultant. I was. He and I were hanging out at the Marketo booth, and he introduced me to this cute little blonde who's a consultant, and she's gonna do this, and it was Maria.

And then we just became close friends. And then at [00:20:00] Aptis, um, I remember one night being at the bar across the street, and hanging out there, and I look on the side of Moscone, and there's the Aptis sign coming from a projector from the window. And I'm like, holy shit. That is like beautiful. And of course, you know, it got found out and she had to take it down, but just the stuff that they did, you know, giving away Tesla, I mean, just the things they did and she did to come up with just getting that name out there.

And every time, and every year I'd go to Dreamforce, I'm like, what the hell is she going to do this year?

Craig Rosenberg: Yes,

that is right. I mean, she cornered, remember she cornered Dreamforce.

She got the four corners of Dreamforce. She put Aptis there. So I think she got the Oasis, the Fogata chat, like everything, so that you could not miss them. and

Michael King: and I,

Craig Rosenberg: [00:21:00] the Tesla was

Michael King: yeah, yeah, I think she was one of the first people to go, hold on, you know, why don't we put something outside so people don't just hang inside Dreamforce and they can come and hang with us. And you're seeing that more and more. And I used to have conversations with, uh, executives that would do the offsite, like one of my buddies was a CEO and he did an offsite at a bar.

This is when they did the free expo passes.

Matt Amundson: Mm

Michael King: you have the free expo pass and you go see the keynote and the expo for free And then you could sign up for these parties and you could go to the parties You just have had to have an expo pass And so this one party I went to with the ceo. It was just packed in there line out the door So i'm in there with him.

He's like, what do you think and i'm looking around going? No one's your potential customer. I said these are our freebies. I said dude if we were going to college You know, at USF say all our buddies would be signing up for free expo passes and this is all free drinks and alcohol. [00:22:00] I said, you need to, you need to target more and just to potential customers, not just to anybody. And he was like, and then now you're starting to see that

is, you know, you go and you see a happy hour and you register and then they check you out and it's either you get the invite or they go, oh yeah, we're over capacity. Sorry.

Matt Amundson: Sure.

Michael King: Because yeah, why would you want it filled with people eating your food and drinking everything and they're not even, not even in the furthest way of potential customer.

Craig Rosenberg: And Jim Walker's, uh, massive beach party in Vegas during the Marketo show. What year was that, Matt?

Matt Amundson: Mm, 2016, I think?

Michael King: oh, was that the Will Smith party?

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Oh, God, yes. That was, oh God, that was a

Craig Rosenberg: I, oh my Lord. Yeah. I mean, you say you, cause you know, you learned a lot from Maria and then, you know, these guys [00:23:00] all sort of came out with this go big or go home,

uh, approach to events and, and Matt and, and team those, that party was. Insane and like everyone remember that was the talk. That was

Michael King: That was

Craig Rosenberg: from the show.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. We'll, we'll link that. We got to link that up in the show notes, uh,

cause there is a, there is like a two and a half minute video of that party, uh, on, on YouTube. Uh, so, so we'll throw that down, but I got to, you got to shout out Jessica Cross, Stephanie Saral. all kinds of people like played just such a massive role in putting that thing together.

And I will say my favorite part of that party, just if, if, if you'll allow me a second here, one of our most like vicious competitors was like up in the room shooting from down. It was like before the party started and, uh, took a photo of like the area where the party was going to be. And it was like, and the tweet was like, um, it doesn't look like very many people are at the ever string party.

Uh, And within like, you know, an hour or so [00:24:00] is I think we had about 3500 people come to that party. It was, it was

pretty

Michael King: the, yeah, it was like the nightclub, you know. You show up a little later and then, yeah, I was behind with a bunch of people behind Will Smith and Jazzy Jeff when he was, they were doing stuff. And I was just

going, brilliant. This is brilliant.

Craig Rosenberg: but they didn't plan that.

Matt Amundson: No, we just, uh, we, we hired DJ Jazzy Jeff to perform knowing that Will Smith was the keynote of the Marketo conference that year. And we had floated out a rumor sort of out there that they would perform together, not knowing that they were going to perform together at all. Uh, and Will had actually done like this kind of awkward performance during the Marketo keynote that he was doing and it didn't really land.

And so. You know, just by pure happenstance and serendipity, he like pinged Jeff and he was like, Hey, I heard you're performing. Can I come and perform with you? This was the first time they had performed live in 20 years. And actually the, the, the party made [00:25:00] the front page of USA today. And if you remember back in those days, you'd be staying at a hotel and they dropped the USA today out on, uh, in front of your door.

So I woke up the next morning and there it was. It was, it was pretty

Michael King: I mean that was the talk for days weeks and months later. That's all anybody talked about.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: amazing.

Matt Amundson: was a

Michael King: Brilliant. Oh,

Craig Rosenberg: mention on on on Maria and the Aptis place that she used to run that that is like a perfect. Uh, I mean, it, I mean, all of us remember it, but I, I, I'm just glad we can immortalize this so I can send it to everyone so they know how aggressive of a marketer she is. And Yeah. just incredible.

Michael King: Well, then you see people now, you know trying to do the same thing, you know, they're all just like anything You know She was the the first one and then people probably said what the hell is she doing? That's not gonna work. And then all sudden they're like, oh shit. We got to do that. Now. Everyone's doing it.

Matt Amundson: Yep.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:26:00] Awesome. All right. So now that we've enjoyed ourselves thoroughly, should, shall we transition into some, uh, So the big question,

Matt Amundson: Ooh, the hard hitting questions. Here we

Michael King: Oh Uh oh. Oh jeez No,

Craig Rosenberg: big one that guides the show is just, it's really, um, simple, but it's like our, you know, when Matt and I started the show, this was about like, you know, the changing playbook and go to market approach. And like, we want to talk to guys like you and figure out kind of what, you know, what they're seeing out there.

So the way we ask the question is. You know, what is it that the market thinks they're doing right? It could be anything. Hiring, in your case, um, approach, methodology, tactics. And they're actually wrong. You know, what are those things and what should they be doing differently? So I lay that on to you and let's go from there.

Michael King: I mean, you mentioned the hiring. That's my biggest pet peeve. And I'm still blown away that it continues to happen is again, we're talking smaller companies, you know, seed a [00:27:00] B's, even some C's, even there's bigger companies ready for an IPO. They just hire the wrong person. I mean, to me, it's so blaring and it's like, that is not the right person.

Or you have ceos at these small companies and I had a conversation with the vp at one of those type of companies He gets hired from the ceo And yes, you know series a yes, you can hire a contractor Uh, he gets in there vp of marketing He'd been a vp of marketing before over small company day one The ceo starts laying out the strategy that he wants him to execute and he calls me up.

He said I don't know why he hired me. He's the CMO. He's the head of marketing. I'm just running errands now for him. And then they don't work. I mean, that's one is just, and then the other huge problem is these companies fall in love with a brand for some reason. I mean, I had somebody that joined the series B had never worked.

Never at a small company [00:28:00] pinged me and said, Hey, um, I need a head of product marketing headed to mansion. And I'm like, look at you as well. And I wanted to give it a try. And I'm like, well, I hope you didn't tell the CEO or the board member that I want to give it a try. Boom. Eight months later, they left, went back to another big publicly traded software company.

But you know, the CEO put out a press release. Oh, we just hired so and so and all big company, I'm thinking why? And what made you think? That was the person to come in and with a four person company

and I mean the first question if i'm a ceo at an a and i'm talking to somebody and and our revenue is like Three five and we want to try to get to ten soon The first question is tell me how you took a company from single to double digits in ar first question If you go, well, i've never done I go.

Okay next. Thank you. Bye

Not wow, you took XYZ software to a hundred million in public. It's like, okay, I don't need, I [00:29:00] probably need you seven years from now. I don't need you now, but no, they hire that person and it blows up and then it derails that company, you know, would you have somebody in the wrong position for a year?

You're done. But then I see the same thing happen with companies that are positioned to have an IPO and they're looking for a CMO and they hire somebody that's not the right person. I'll get, here's a perfect example. You guys remember ServiceMax?

Matt Amundson: Of

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Michael King: Stacey Epstein was the CMO. Okay, so, so here's another, yeah.

You know, you remember the name Dave Arnold,

Matt Amundson: Yes. I worked with, I worked with his daughter, Rachel. right? Oh, yes. Rachel's,

Craig Rosenberg: Fun fact.

Michael King: yeah. So I got a bigger, so Craig, you'll love this being a barrier guy. So Dave and I, uh, went to, uh, junior high together,

Matt Amundson: Nice.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, jeez. That's amazing.

Michael King: So, so when Stacy moved on, he pinged me. He goes, all right, I need a CMO. [00:30:00] And I'm like, okay, what are we looking for? And they're, you know, they were gonna have an IPO. That was the goal. He goes. Has to have taken a company public and just went down through all the things they needed Yeah. and that's who he hired He hired a guy named david mylam from he had taken five nine public and in other companies boom And, and I wouldn't, why would I call somebody else and even put them in front of them if they had never taken a company public, but I see these other companies hire people and I look at their background and went, what, what, why is that the person?

And then eight months later, they're gone.

Matt Amundson: yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: So that that's a actually that's a really good one. Can I just in my own self interest and working with series a, uh, tell me like, like what else? What should be looking for in terms of marketing leadership at that sort of stage in the life cycle?

Michael King: well, to me first, I mean, I'm just, [00:31:00] I just finished up one and hopefully finish up another. I'm only talking to people that have done it and have been at series a because. This one CEO goes, well, you know, I have somebody that's really good. And I said, so tell me their background. Let me see. And gave me their LinkedIn and I'm looking at it.

Matt Amundson: I go, have they worked, have they been an IC that doesn't look like it? You said there's one person there. Well, no, but they said they're hands on, but they're, they're from the space.

mm hmm,

Michael King: And I'm like, don't go down that path. I mean, everyone's going to tell you they're hands on. They're all hands on,

Matt Amundson: right,

Michael King: they get in there, then they're like, Oh, I need this and this, I need this and this. And then what happens?

Matt Amundson: yeah. Do you think that, uh, CEOs over rotate too much towards, like, domain expertise? is is having taken, having been in that situation more valuable than, like, necessarily having a lot of expertise in the space?

Michael King: I'll just tell you, [00:32:00] um, a lot of them, they have no idea what they want. I don't know who they're listening to. Are they listening to a board member or so called advisor? But at the end of the day, they're just going blindly. It's like, well, an advisor said I need product marketing background. They bring in the wrong person because that's not what they need.

Oh, I need a demand gen. That's no, you don't need that, right? And that's my first key, um, is. Do you know what you want? yeah, And I have some people that will say, um, I need a product marketer.

Matt Amundson: sure,

Michael King: And I'm like, tell me more, tell me more. And they know, they go, we don't need leads. We need messaging, positioning sales.

And we, I'm like, perfect. But it's the ones who I speak with have no clue. yeah, They don't, they have, they, they're flying by the seat of their pants. You know, I was told we need this. I was told we need this. [00:33:00] And then it blows up.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Of course. But would you, but do you hire based on their background? So you said like they know they need product marketing, but like if you're, you're hiring ahead of marketing or VPN at that level or CMO, like when do you, when do you, when should you hire a CMO? You think

Michael King: Well, first of all, what's the, what's the definition of a C what's the difference between a CMO and a VP of marketing at a series A or B. Well,

Sam Guertin: Ha ha ha

Michael King: if someone, if someone is a, if someone's working again, if they're at the same kind of company, you know, if they're, if they're at a series a, and they were there for a year, and that's what I'm looking for someone that has just been there.

But, you know, again, I don't want them at a big company with a team of five or six. So, I mean, I've Matt knows I've written about this and I'm huge about this is for success in your career you chase companies you do not chase titles you do not [00:34:00] chase money you chase companies I've had and here's a perfect example docu sign years ago early early docu sign Um a buddy, uh, michael lungren was the vp of product marketing at the time known.

Yeah, i've known him Shit 2000 I think we first met night forever And so he goes hey, I need a senior director of product marketing in my team But here's the thing i'm going to move to a different role This person's gonna take over mine, be a vp. I'm like, perfect. So I'm talking to people that have been VPs of product marketing and tell 'em about the, and they're like, well, why would I take a senior director?

I'm a VP now. I'm like, no, no, no, no. Yes, that's the title going in. But Michael's transitioning out to a new role and this will be the vp. And all these people are like, no, 'cause that's all they heard. It's like, well, how can I do that? So there was a guy named Miles Kelly, amazing guy who I'd known forever, Pingdom, and he'd been a VP for the last few years of marketing.

And I said, here's a role. You gotta look at it. And I said, [00:35:00] don't worry about the title. But the title's gonna be VP of Product Marketing within a year. He went through, boom, got it started. Senior Director, Product Marketing. Became VP of Product Marketing. You go to his LinkedIn, it has his name. It says, VP of Product Marketing.

And that's what I tell people. I go, listen, the only title you worry about is the title coming out, not going in. But people don't, a lot of people don't think that way. Even with CMO title people, I'm like, Oh, I got this hot startup. Well, the title has got to be CMO. I'm like, no, no, no. Okay. Listen to me.

Here's the product. Here's the funding. Who cares what they call you? If you, the company, you kill it a year from now, they'll give you the CM. But don't, don't hold that is something that you need to have when you're looking at an opportunity. If it's a great company, who cares what they call you just go in and kill it.

And then. Whatever four or five years, you know, you're going to be sitting back and it's an ipo and you're whatever cmo by then But you know, I don't know if it's [00:36:00] i've always thought maybe it's linkedin Maybe people are going wow. That's how they're going to look at my profile People are going to think I took a less job or on the money, you know chasing the money Yeah, it's the bay area people go.

Wow. I need this and I need this and I If you go chase shitty companies and get the money good luck getting that next job People are going to go why the hell did you go in it? They know it's a shitty company They're like, you know, why did you go to that shitty company? I had a guy, senior director of product marketing was killing it at this company, and the company was growing and he pings me, he goes, Hey, I just wanna let you know I took a VP of marketing, I really want to be a VP of marketing at this company, honestly, piece of shit company.

Matt Amundson: Mmm, yeah.

Michael King: And so eight months later he is on the market

Craig Rosenberg: yeah,

Michael King: he, and then he goes, I go, I go, this is the question every person's gonna ask you and how are you gonna answer it? They're gonna go, wow. Why did you leave that to go to that? What are you going to tell them if you say for the [00:37:00] title?

They're never going to hire you because as soon as something comes around with a vp title or a different title That's what that would get you going and that's what's going to make you leave

Matt Amundson: Yep.

Michael King: But he wasn't thinking that. He would have stayed there, he would have been a VP, and the company was amazing.

But he, again, was chasing titles, and, oh, I gotta, I gotta be a, a CMO or a VP by the time I'm 35, or what, I'm like So I don't know, if it's that, or if it's like, you know, Fortune and Forbes, 30 under 30, people think, oh, wow, I gotta accomplish all this stuff, or I'm a loser, and I'm like Get over it, man. Just, don't, don't look at that shit.

Matt Amundson: That's right.

Craig Rosenberg: That's amazing. I've been, uh, I've actually come to where you are right there, Michael, but I've get I used to give advice to not take a step back and with marketers just because I was always everyone's all it feels like everyone's always looking for a way to discount or shoot holes in the in the marketer.

So I said don't don't [00:38:00] Um, go backwards. And then what I saw was what you brought up, which is then you made bad company decisions, and that doesn't help anybody. The other thing I've learned is like, if you're at a good company, uh, run that thing until it runs its course, man, because like

Michael King: Yep.

Craig Rosenberg: example you just gave totally resonate where people like, well, I gotta get out because I got a good.

The reason you'd leave is because you want to. Let's say you're a builder and they're too big now. Okay, that means that you will wake up every day happy that that's good. But if you're going for what you said, chasing title money, et cetera, those are the wrong reasons to do that. And as in, like, if you stay long enough at a company, like if you stayed at Salesforce over the period of time, you weren't one of those folks that jump ship to take a shot.

Now, a bunch of people did jump and make really great decisions, but there's a ton that didn't. Those folks end up with it. You move up like if you're good you kill it you moving up and you're leaving there with a much [00:39:00] greater title and pride board Seats and like, you know everything else that goes with it So I I it took me a while to come to where you are on that advice I should have taught I should have done this podcast with you earlier, man, or Dundee

Michael King: I mean, the other thing Matt knows that I screamed from the top of the mountain is, um, if you go to a good company, you will never look for a job again. I mean, a couple examples is when Marketo got acquired by Vista and they started moving everything to Denver. I'd get called by companies all the time going, Hey, you know, do you know any Marketo people?

I heard there's a bunch on the street. yeah. wasn't and and there were there were good people there were probably some not great people there, but they had that brand and so companies grabbed them because they they worked at marketo and Another current one is you know, russell that was at aptus and

Matt Amundson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I put russell udy called me in 2019 had heard about me We didn't never met him and he told me he needed his first superstar [00:40:00] demand gen person and I It was the same, you know, Maria, Maria is almost like my farm system.

Michael King: You know, anybody, anybody she hires, I'm like, I'm keeping track of that

person. You know, and she said he was great. And I just kept waiting and then boom, here it came. I go, we need to talk, you know, and I put him in there and he was just killing it. And then last year, Udi made him VP marketing and put an announcement and I put on LinkedIn, I go, there you go.

There is the example I've been yelling about. I said, he goes to a company, he kills it. Now he's a VP. Now he's, now he's the CMO at a company that's got a shitload of funding.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Cresta. Yeah.

Michael King: Cresta got a shitload, and he's the CMO. And people ping me about that. They go, So how did he get that? Well, I mean, you know, it helps.

He did an amazing job, and then CRO is from Gong and thinks he's amazing. So he's like, dude, you gotta join us.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yep.

Michael King: he will never look for a job. He doesn't even need a [00:41:00] resume anymore. People just go, Can you come over here and do what you did at Gong? Sure. You know, but if you've worked at shitty companies people are like i've never heard of them.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yeah. Russ is, uh, amazing. He is amazing. Great, great person too. Not just a great marker. Just such a great person.

Craig Rosenberg: makes total sense. The, um, if you're on the CMOs, like, so the, the recruit, not the recruiter or the recruitee, um, you know, what about on their side? So like, uh, it doesn't like, do you tell them, like, make sure you can have a good relationship with the CRO, the found, like, cause a bunch of CMOs tell me now, well, it's the founder.

I have to make sure that I can work with the, yeah. So what, what kind of, um, advice do you give there?

Michael King: Yes, it's the other analogy i've used forever and I think I mentioned it Maybe you guys is the horse track you go into the horse track [00:42:00] Who do you bet on the horse or the jockey? You know, there's plenty of companies out there that don't have great jockeys and we'll call them ceos um No, you, there's people that have director, senior director that tell me, Oh, I'm joining XYZ software with Debbie, the CMO, because of we've worked together before.

And I've had that happen in the past and I'll ping the person. I go, what'd you think of the CEO? And they go, well, I, I really didn't meet him, but it seems good. I go, are you aware that she's the third CMO in three years? They're shocked. They go, I didn't know that. And I'm like. It's great that you know this person, but the person is running the show is the CEO.

So the reason to join a company is who's running the show. And I, and I had painful conversations again, back like Rob Bernstein. He had me work on his first VP marketing search at, uh, Coupa. And I'm talking to people and they were like, I don't know about this product and this and that. I'm like, you're looking at the wrong [00:43:00] thing.

I go, the reason to join this company is because the CEO. Okay, forget all the other stuff. And I had one person that he really liked, she just couldn't get her arms around the product, and she said no. And then, when they took off and they had their IPO, I get a text from her, she goes, I should have listened.

like, that's why you joined a company. It's because of that person. And, and I said, when I met him in 03, I said, this dude is amazing. I gotta follow him. And we just, you know, I, I, I'm sure you can see all my memorabilia, but he is. If you do some Googling, Rob Bernstein is like one of the number one baseball card collectors

Matt Amundson: Oh, nice.

Michael King: the world.

Craig Rosenberg: no way.

Michael King: Holy shit. The stuff he has would blow your mind. Cause I remember I was telling him, I got this and I, you know, that back behind me is a Niners ball from 1970, the Montana. I got a baseball there from the Oakland A's whole team when they won the world series in 73. I mean, a bunch of stuff. Then he starts [00:44:00] rattling off his.

You know, Ty Cobbs and Babe Ruth, and I'm like, holy shit. That's another level. That's another level.

Craig Rosenberg: that's amazing

Matt Amundson: Uh, well, Mike, what's the, uh, you know, I know last year was kind of Armageddon. What's the state of the market like today? How would you, how would you describe things? Yeah.

Michael King: say it's starting off as 2. 0, number two, whatever. I'm still getting, I got three today. Laid off, laid off,

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Michael King: is, well, I mean what's happening is, And I see all this stuff on LinkedIn is, uh, sales coaches, you know, teaching people how to sell better and try this and try the end of the day. If you're a sales rep at a nice to have product, good luck.

No one's buying that shit. You can try every little go on social media and like, Hey Bob, I'm a Niners fan too. Good luck. You know, they're not buying that shit.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah

Michael King: just, that's the thing. So all these companies [00:45:00] that have products and people, unless, unless it's a must have, I'm not buying right now. I'm getting through this. And then, you know, on the hiring side, I talked to a lot of CMOs after the right round Christmas, Hey, what's, you know, Q1 looking like and said, lean, lean. Um, you know, you got the AI piece, which is eliminating my head count. Um, do I need a team of 10? No, the, uh, you know, offshores hurting too, because I have a head of demand gen search and the CMO said, this person has a head count of two Bay area.

And I'm like, okay. He goes, but they can have eight in India if they want.

Matt Amundson: Hmm.

Michael King: Like, holy shit.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Michael King: mean, you know, and, and the offshore people are getting better and better and better and better. So, you

know, Well, speaking of AI, is that starting to [00:46:00] become, are you starting to see that as a job requirement? You know,

Matt Amundson: just the being adept with AI tools. Yeah.

Michael King: Yep. One CMO. That's the first thing he said. Head of demand gen. They have to be AI literate. These are all the AI tools we're using. They have to be literate AI. That's

it.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. That's a

real, that's a real change.

Michael King: yeah, it's, um, it's just, you know, an intro. I think a lot of just standby. Just a lot of, you know, let's kind of keep moving forward, getting through uncertainty. Um, you know, again, 2021 was the complete opposite. It's like spend, spend, spend. You know, I had a company. They got a hun they got, uh, 210 million in one calendar year.

They were just hiring, hiring, and I'm like, The revenue doesn't support this, man! But, I mean, they're sending me huge checks, and I'm what, I'm gonna say no? And then all of a sudden, eight months later, they lay them all off, and they got sold for nothing. And I

was like, Yeah.

but, that's [00:47:00] how it was. It was, grow, grow, grow, don't think about anything, and, you know, I I had been through this Plenty of times and it don't last and we saw what happened,

Matt Amundson: Yeah Well, I think, I think there's a lot of optimism now. I mean, I think, you know, you know, there's obviously, there's, there's been a change for good, bad or indifferent, however you feel about what's going on DC. I think people are optimistic that the market's going to turn around. Uh, I, for one have a bunch of open job recs.

So I feel, I feel good. Come, come, come work for me at Duplo cloud. Um, but, uh, before we put a pin in this, I just want to reiterate again, Hey, okay. The, uh, everybody needs to go by Michael's website. Uh, it's MichaelTKing. com. Correct, Mike?

Michael King: Beautiful. Thank you. Yes

Matt Amundson: Yes.

Yes.

Michael King: and i'll be at and i'll be at the uh, The book comes out on the 29th and i'll [00:48:00] be at book passage in the ferry building May 10th may 10 3 p. m You know, it would be cool if I could get a ton of people there. That would be so cool. I don't know.

I think it's one of those they'll say, yeah, you know, we usually get 20, 30 people I would, Oh God, because, you know, again, I was born and raised there.

So I'll hit up all my buddies, friends, relatives is just, you know, just have a big party.

Matt Amundson: Yeah, for sure. So, that's such a cool thing. I love it

so the book is be there when I return, you can go buy it on MichaelTKing. com. Uh, you can get an autograph copy. That's what I did.

Michael King: You're Smart, man. Smart, man. do that. Yeah,

But then you can also other people, um, you know, if you want to support local bookstores, all the links are on there. If you prefer to buy on Amazon, you know, of course, anybody that buys it through me is. You know, uh, reviews on Amazon will help promote the book because my, my goal [00:49:00] is for 2025 to be the year of epilepsy awareness.

Um, what's happened, what happens with that? It's sad. Uh, I've had hundreds of people reach out to me, um, of sharing their story and just shocking that I'm like, I'll just share one quick story that would blow your mind is I went to the dentist on Monday. It's a new dentist, the second time I was there. And I had a, I decided just with my business cards just to put the back of, uh, my website on it.

And so I just checked in and I'm like, Oh, what the hell? I'm going to try it. And so I said, Oh, do you like reading books? And she's like, yes, I do. She goes, well, I'm really busy. I have a four year old and we got a bunch of stuff going on. I said, of course. So I gave her the, uh. The card she looked at, she goes, Oh, what's it about?

I go, it's about a medical journey I had and plus career. And she goes, Oh, I go, I go, she goes, Oh, that might be timely. I'm like, well, why? She goes, well, my four year old last week got diagnosed with epilepsy.

Matt Amundson: Wow. [00:50:00] I was like, what? She goes, well, what is your book about? And I told her, this lady thought she saw a ghost.

Michael King: She's like, what? And so we talked and talked and I had to go in to get the cleaning and I'm talking with the, the, uh, the dentist we're, we're talking and I did the same thing. I'm like, she goes, Oh, I saw you speaking with April. I go, yeah, you know, I have a book. She goes, Oh, she tell you about the epilepsy, her daughter.

I go, yeah. I said, what? She goes, same thing. She goes, Oh, well, what's your book about? And I told her, she was like, she goes, wow. She goes, yeah, my brother has epilepsy. I mean, I don't know if people know, but there's like almost 3. 5 million people running around with it. And the thing is, and I was in that camp forever, is no one talks about it.

Um, when I put, when I put that first post up about my book, holy shit. I got texts nonstop from people I've known 20 years going, I didn't know that. And I was like, well, how would you, what I got to introduce myself. Hi, I'm Michael. I have epilepsy. It's like, how would you? [00:51:00] And I said, you'd be amazed how many thousands of people are running around with it, and you have no idea.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yeah.

Well, thank you for sharing your story. It's

Michael King: Look at

Matt Amundson: It's amazing.

Michael King: You okay, Craig?

Craig Rosenberg: I mean, it's, it's just, there are these moments where you have conversations like this, you realize that in GoToMarket we're just playing a fucking video game.

Matt Amundson: It's true.

Michael King: Right, and that's my, yeah. Well, my goal, and, is to speak at all these, as many tech conferences as I can, is being like the motive, because everybody in that audience is going through shit.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Michael King: I've had some people go, it's really not our audience. Our audience is more developers. And I'm thinking you don't get it is mine is about everybody in that audience to hear that you're, I'm sure you're going through something.

There's hope. I mean, look, you know, you can get through it. And so you guys have any ideas, you know, of, of getting, getting, uh, the ears of, of any other [00:52:00] CMOs or CEOs at tech conferences, fireside chats. To to look at it differently than i'm talking about recruiting or something. It's like no It's it's motivational.

It's about overcoming things that you probably are going through that you think there's no Way in hell you're ever going to be able to get over that

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Amazing.

Matt Amundson: Amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: Alright, well that was amazing. So, uh, we'll chalk that one up as a. That's a completely new set of content heartwarming and inspiring and so thank you man. Appreciate you coming on

Michael King: Well, man, thanks for the thanks for the the invite that was Like I said, I'm sure people in your audience are, are going through shit too, and they're

probably going to sit back

and, and just go, wow, I got a, you know, even on LinkedIn, people ping me and go, hey, can you talk? I'm like, of course. I mean, I had a, a man reach out to me, um, from the Epilepsy Foundation to, I mean, this is sad and hard.

I [00:53:00] mean, I, I was, this was during Dreamforce and I'm in the hotel this last September, uh, get a LinkedIn message and he had shared with me that his two daughters were born. Two twins born with epilepsy. One had died in her sleep when she was 10, the other

was 14. Oh, I know the story. So he, he says, would you mind speaking to my 14-year-old today?

She's having a rough day.

Matt Amundson: Of

Michael King: I'm like, the go-to per, he, I'm, he's coming to me for this. I'm like, of course. So he, he gives me his number, he and I chat. She comes on and I'm just trying to be positive. He comes back on and is like, almost crying. He goes, thank you. He goes, you know, when the book comes out, can you please send her one autograph?

And I'm like, yes. And I, I got off the call and was like, and I've been going through some weird emotional stuff because when I first got diagnosed with epilepsy and those five years, I went down some dark holes of why me like, what the fuck did I do to [00:54:00] deserve

Matt Amundson: Of course.

Michael King: And so now I'm going through the, why me is why am I one of the lucky people that had surgery?

And I'm seizure free, I've got reached out from hundreds of people who have had surgery, and they still have seizures. It's like, you know, you start doing that, it's like, wow, what, why am I, why was I the lucky one?

Why me? So, it's like, yeah, this whole, and this whole year is going to be filled with that, of, you know, people sharing stories, and me just trying, again, I'm trying to work with, uh, the Giants, Marin, ML, trying to do like, because it gets no love, you know, it's, Whoever, whoever was behind the whole cancer push with MasterCard, whatever, however they did that, they're brilliant, because for cancer, they stopped the All Star game.

You know, and all the players come out and everybody holds up a card. They stopped game four of the World Series. All the players, everybody holds up a card, [00:55:00] and they do this whole thing about cancer. It's like, why, why does cancer get all that, and other ones like epilepsy is, everybody's quiet, and no one

talks.

Craig Rosenberg: yeah

Matt Amundson: well, good that you're shedding some light on it. Good that you're shedding some light on it.

All right. We

love we love you, Mike. Thanks for being on the

Michael King: Thanks, man.

Craig Rosenberg: bro.

Matt Amundson: We

Michael King: Thank you. I'll talk to you guys soon. [00:56:00]