The Transaction

TT - 050 - Sheila Stafford - Full Episode
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Sheila Stafford: [00:00:00] Net revenue retention KPIs are probably one of the most important that you should pay attention to as a founder. The only only moat in software is true customer love,

I never, ever imagined that a software that we would produce would have that profound impact

don't get me wrong, like Apple was in there, Google was in there, Microsoft was in there, but they all went the app based approach because they don't understand

this market and we went the tech space approach. And so we went from zero to one really quickly

I talk a lot about like learning the native language, being able to translate how what we do impacts their bottom line.

Sam Guertin: Hey, producer, Sam here. Just giving you a heads up. Craig's audio and video is kind of shit, uh, for the first minute, but from there on out, the episode is fine. And now.

Let's get back to the show.

Speaker: So, Sheila, one thing you need to know is somehow I wore a hat once and it did really well on our Instagram and TikTok channel.

So I, you know, I try to grab a hat or something fun. So today I, I'm [00:01:00] gonna wear it 'cause I'm cold, but I just, I got this shirt and I just, I wanted to show Matt and Sam and the audience. So are you ready? I will show you the said

Sheila Stafford: I am ready.

Matt Amundson: All

right. I'm

nervous. Oh.

Speaker: What movie? What movie is this

from?

Sam Guertin: Die hard.

Speaker: I saw that shirt it got, speaking of TikTok. It like showed up in my, no, my Instagram showed up in my feed. I'm like, I gotta buy it. I gotta wear it. I'll wear it for real next time. It's just cold today. So what do you think? Die hard.

Sheila Stafford: you should have gave me the heads up that it was like fun

Speaker: No, no, no. You don't have to. Yeah. Yeah. You're good. You're good.

Sheila Stafford: know I would need to go change. I didn't get the, I didn't get the

Speaker: well. We're not good at memos. We're gonna talk to Sam. Sam.

we gotta talk about this. Your memo writing is just awful.

Sam Guertin: Atrocious.

Speaker: What do

​[00:02:00]

Matt Amundson: So welcome to the show everybody. I'm so happy, uh, to have a very special guest with us today. we met a few weeks ago and I was just so incredibly impressed by her story and, uh, the, you know, not just the story of her business, the story of the founding of her business and the incredible success that she's had early on.

So I'm so happy to welcome Sheila Stafford to our show today. Sheila, thank you for joining us and tell us a little bit about TeamSense.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, thanks for having me. So TeamSense is at a 10,000 foot view, it's a digital connection to frontline employees. What a lot of people don't really understand is that most frontline employees don't have a company email address, a company phone, or access to a company computer. We [00:03:00] particularly serve folks in the manufacturing and logistics sector, but we've seen some growth in other verticals that we can talk about at some point.

Um, and so what we do is a Trojan horse strategy. And so we solve like a really painful, uh, problem, which is attendance management. And attendance management is so painful. Um, everybody hates it. It's kind of like Expensify back in the day where like before you had to like do your expense reports and you're like, nobody was like, oh, this process is amazing.

Everybody's like, it sucks. So we solve that. Um, and there's some magic in that, that everybody hates it. We come in and they're like, you guys are amazing. But it also gives us a connection with 100% of the employees because it's a required workflow that they're, um, needing to do. And then the most important, especially in this business environment, is that, uh, attendance management is very, very closely linked to your ability to produce goods.

Um, and so we can show an ROI like massive ROI in a matter of weeks.

Matt Amundson: That's amazing. That's amazing. So [00:04:00] we always like to sort of kick off the show with the, uh, uh, uh, a question that Craig refers to as Matt's feature enhancement 2.1 is that, have I nailed it, Craig?

Craig Rosenberg: Two. It's now 2.1 a because now that we, we, now that we've put it in play, it's been improved and optimized.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: 2.1 a.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. So tell us a, tell us a story about, you know, sort of TeamSense, you know, uh, maybe a sales motion or, or could be, you know, just about, you know, the, the founding of the business that, you know, would be surprising, could be hilarious, could be heroic, um, you know, related to, to, you know, sort of the, the growth of the company.

Sheila Stafford: so one thing that's kind of magical about Team Sense is that we've got incredible customer love, right? Like our net revenue retention numbers are, you know, over 125%. Like it's ridiculous, which is awesome. and so most of the time when I go and visit customers, you know, folks are just like in love and just [00:05:00] effusive and they love, love, love when we come visit.

And so we were going to visit a customer, um, that was in the Phoenix area. As we're going in, my customer success person was like, Hey, like, I don't know how this is gonna go. Like, they haven't been like super engaged with us and like I try to, you know, put a meeting on their calendar to see how it's going to share more capabilities of the system and like build no show.

And so, like, I know you're used to getting like this really warm reception, but like, I'm just giving it a heads up, like we might be in for like a churn. And I was like, okay. Like, let's see what happens when we get in there. We go in there and we sit down and we're waiting. And normally, um, HR finds us and is kind of our champion, but we're generally always paid for by operations.

And so in this case, the head of HR comes in and this is a large like aluminum processing company. So she comes in and she sits down and I kind of kick off the conversation with like, tell me how it's going, how's the, the impact of TeamSense? And I would say, you know, one thing about our go to market is [00:06:00] I'm very, very adamant of.

Discussing our business impact, because in the end, like that's what really matters. And like real dollars impact, not just like, oh, you're gonna have better, I don't know, I'll pick on other HR software, like employee engagement. Great. But like, where does that like lead to dollars is, is really big and important for me.

And so this HR person is like, you know, it's been fantastic. Like we've seen, you know, decrease in overtime, we've seen increase in productivity and like all of the KPIs, and we're like, in my mind I'm just like, ding, ding, ding. Like checking 'em off. And then she says to me, but like, that's not where we like, really, really kind of realize the value from your software.

And I was like, okay, like, tell me more. And so she proceeds to tell me like, on our attendance, um, we'll say workflow, it's custom to every customer. And so they can write whatever they want and like we'll deliver the workflow to the employee. And theirs in particular has like an uh. A form for them to fill out kind of an open, you know, dialogue.

And so one of the employees [00:07:00] was filling out the form and in their attendance, we'll say section they put for their reason for absence that they're going to heaven, they submitted the absence, it immediately went to the supervisor and to hr and the way that they've set up their notification structures and both of them look at it and they're like, that's really weird.

And so they decide that they're gonna call a health check. For this employee. And so sure enough, uh, they called a health check. They go and they found the employee in a mental health crisis. So then this woman tells me, you know, like, the real value that you have is you guys played a part in saving this employee's life.

And I was just like, holy shit.

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Sheila Stafford: like when you're a founder, you know, like I, I never, ever, ever imagined that a software. That we would produce would have kind of that profound impact. Um, like we've, like I said, I've always preached like dollars, dollars, dollars, um, but never in my mind would you think [00:08:00] like an attendance management solution could actually, you know, save somebody's life.

And so that was just one of those like, like holy shit moments, uh, for me as a founder and kind of like reignited a bit of like why we're doing this and the

Matt Amundson: yeah, of course. Wow. That is an unbelievable story. I can't, that's, that's incredible.

Craig Rosenberg: what category does that fall in? Because it is a new breakthrough. It's 2.1 BI, I mean, wow.

Matt Amundson: Yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: Well that was a, I mean, you, you hit the compelling.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, we don't talk about it much like publicly. Like you, you don't market that, right? Like, oh, like. You know, like, uh, someone was, you know, struggling and needed help and like, what a cool way for them. They probably thought nobody was listening or that nobody cared. And then to have like that company react in that way.

And that was kind of my response was like, okay, like we didn't do that to be honest. Like we for sure [00:09:00] helped facilitate and gave the communication, which typically there's a communication gap between the frontline and, and their employers. And that's what we solve. Like their team made the decision of like, we should take action.

You could easily just write it off and be like, nah, that's weird. People say weird shit all the time. Uh, but they took action and, and made it happen. And so that was just, you know, incredible and, and good for them for doing that. So, needless to say, the customer did not churn. Uh, they were just quiet and apparently busy.

Matt Amundson: yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Uh, uh, that, that's an incredible story. Talk about the intersection between great software and a company that truly cares about its employees and is willing to go the extra mile. Probably a, a good reason for why they purchased your solution in the first place is 'cause they truly care about their employees.

That's, that is exceptional.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Matt Amundson: So we usually, I mean, get, lemme take a breath there because we don't typically hear stories like that. Um, we usually follow up that question with, with something that, you know, is, is supportive to, uh, to the go-to-market. Uh, leaders that, that are, [00:10:00] are our listeners to our show, which is, um.

What is something that you're seeing out in the markets? Could be a best practice, could be sort of a, you know, a standard play that people like to run that they, they think is right, but in reality they're actually wrong about it and they should be thinking about it differently. It could be a metric that they measure their company, it could be, you know, sort of a, a process that they use to acquire customers.

Um, you know, and this is a great place for us to understand your u unique perspective on how your business is going to market.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, I mean, I think email is dead. Like just like dead as as dead can be, and you know, all of these AI solutions on hyper personalization or like just making it worse, right? Like all these MarTech folks came out here and just like. Completely destroyed a really good channel. I see my inbox every morning.

I get up, there's like, I dunno, do you guys curse? I curse a lot.

Matt Amundson: Yeah. You're, you're, this is an adult show.

Sheila Stafford: Okay.

Matt Amundson: [00:11:00] Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: A.

Sheila Stafford: All right. Fair enough. I wanted to double check. I just delivered a keynote on Monday where they're like, do not curse. I was like, fuck, how do I do that?

Craig Rosenberg: I knew I liked you.

Sheila Stafford: and so I, I get up in the morning and there's like fucking, like a hundred messages of just all, you know, and it's like super, like, oh, like we went to, we both went to Duke. I'm like, I don't give a shit like. And, and like everybody's got like their hyper-personalization and it's gotten to the point of if I don't recognize the name, I am not going to answer it.

And I think that's the same with my customers. And so if you think about like, okay, if email is dead, unless you have a recognizable name, like how much more important are like personal referrals? And like I think that as AI continues to ramp, like the human aspect is gonna be. So, so much more important, and I think that goes to some of the other things is like, you know, all of these, like, I'll call it old folks in [00:12:00] marketing that have like aged out, like they're gonna become so much more important, right?

Like before you had email, like PR for example, right? Like think about ai. AI delivers answers, not links. Like there's no points for second place. Like you either get that answer to be your product or you're out and like how do you get your answer to be that product is. You need to have like the answer with a really high domain authority and like, how do you get a really high domain authority to talk about your product pr?

And so like all these PR firms that went outta business, like PR is gonna be new. Um, similarly, you know, events and direct mail, like all of that stuff to stand out. 'cause I think email is just completely dead. Don't even waste your time.

Craig Rosenberg: So you wouldn't use it at all, even. With all of, so let's say you had a really effective PR strategy, so you've now carpet bombed your target market. Uh, so would email work then, or are you saying don't even waste your time, you were to [00:13:00] pr yourself into people coming to you? Or how do you think about that?

Sheila Stafford: I mean, our business up until this point has been largely built on inbound. So like we do really well there. Like obviously you'll close inbound, um, but it is just so hard to get. Outbound, I mean from an email standpoint. And so like, do we still send emails for sure, but I expect zero return. It's more on like brand awareness.

Like maybe they see that it's from TeamSense, but I'm not even relying on that. It's like, okay, how do I, how do I get smarter? Like how do I, you know, one of the things that you mentioned is we've got. Incredible number of like enterprise accounts and like, you know, existing customers and like, I've got this incredible customer love.

So like, should I spend time on building up my community and spend resources on getting them to make intros for me or like, like called email outbound and like tweaking the subject me the subject line or the body. Like, it's just, I don't think it's gonna work and [00:14:00] I don't think it, the, the juice is worth the squeeze.

Craig Rosenberg: Okay. Uh, Matt, is it all right? I just this, so let me give you what I know about you and why you're on the show and what you just said. 'cause I think this is really cool

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: One of, so when Matt was like, oh my God, I just met this amazing person, Sheila, and we were with Sam, and I guess Sam was there too, because he is like, oh yeah, yeah.

And he's like, and I'm like, why? And he's like, dude. Like they got into the enterprise so fast as a young company. And for a lot of the folks that, you know, like Matt and I advise, it's like you gotta knock down doors, right? And what you're, what you did. So I'd love to sort of merge the two things together. Was you the, do you built around domain expertise? So like, um, and that was sort of your, that was your big, you built this sort of cloud of domain expertise around these [00:15:00] enterprise companies and they came to you. Is there a way we could merge the two? 'cause I think this is really interesting. Um, the speed with the idea that, you know, this is about PR is actually extraordinary.

It's really interesting to.

Sheila Stafford: I think, you know, like obviously I'm probably older than the average founder that you guys talk to. I would, I would dare say, um. I have just tremendous experience. Like I worked in and around manufacturing for over 20 years. And so what happened when we founded the company, if we back up to the founding story, um, is that in 2020 when Covid OD hit?

Uh, I was working at Fortive at the time and Fortive is a publicly traded industrial technology company. I was an executive there running kind of a, a business unit. Covid hits and it like dawns on me that like, holy shit, like three things are going to 100% be true. One is the government is not gonna allow [00:16:00] manufacturers to stay at home, like the workers have to work.

You can't assemble a pickup truck from your kitchen table. It's too much of the GDP, like, they are going to figure out a way. Boom. Okay. That's, that's a given. The second is that what I know about manufacturing is that. All of the communication because they don't have a company email address, they don't have a company phone, they don't have access to company.

Computer is all done in person via toolbox talks via standup, and if I need to get ahold of them, they do phone trees like you call these people. You call these people like I know that to be true. I'm still working in manufacturing across the board. The speed at which OSHA was changing requirements by law nationally, the speed at which states were layering on requirements, the speed at which towns were layering on requirements meant that there was no chance that these guys were going to be able to keep up with the communication protocol.

In order to reach the employees, like think about it like you've been exposed and like you've gotta do all of that tracking by law. And [00:17:00] so the big bet that we made that really kind of transformed, and again like on my experience was I had the lovely opportunity to go ask frontline workers, we'll say months ago to download the company sponsored app.

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Sheila Stafford: And like you go in there and they ask like they're not like they're intelligent people, right? They're like, okay, are you paying for my phone? No, we're not gonna pay for your phone. Okay. Like, uh, you need me to sign a, a, bring your, do you have access to my device? And you say, no, we don't really like, have access, but like if your device is involved in a breach, then you have to sign this, like bring your own device policy from big corporate.

And they're like, okay, no F you. And you're like. Okay. Like, I don't think they're gonna download the app, right? Like it's just not gonna happen. And so we bet on the fact that people will not download a corporate sponsored app no matter what. And we built all of our system via text message. And so what text message enables is that like you have rapid, rapid adoption.

And so that was the big bet. And [00:18:00] so the, the opportunity was can we help companies with the requirements that Covid was driving in the background? Again, the Trojan horse strategy. That we would establish the digital connection, that you could use lots of other things, and we would be that communication channel.

And so when I was at Fortive, there's some, a little bit longer story, but the, the, the short of it is the CEO of Fortive was like, Hey, if you found that company, we will be your for first investor. And so, uh, Fortive became our first investor and we get out the door, which was amazing. Then like super early, um, we were able to sign like logos, like Pella Windows and Hunter Douglas.

I think Pella Windows was maybe our third customer ever. Um, but again, like we had this big market impetus where, you know, everybody needs a solution. There are no incumbents. It's an all out foot race. And don't get me wrong, like Apple was in there, Google was in there, Microsoft was in there, but they all went the app based approach because they don't understand.

This market and we went the tech space approach. And so we [00:19:00] went from zero to one really quickly, um, continued to kind of grow with those enterprises. And then, you know, as like the kind of the covid was sunset as the vaccine was coming out, we just changed kind of our Trojan go to market, right?

And so instead of helping them with Covid, now we're helping them with attendance and like the product just continues to live on. And I think the most crazy part is. Um, when we decided to go with attendance, uh, I thought like, oh my gosh, you know, COVID was the biggest business opportunity we've ever seen in our lives.

And so like, we're gonna go with attendance and like our go-to market's gonna change. We tripled the business in the first quarter that we launched attendance, and I was like, what? Like, this is insane. Like, who knew? Um, and have just been on kind of a, a fun ride ever since.

Matt Amundson: That's incredible. That's incredible. I mean, I would, I, would

Went

Craig Rosenberg: yeah.

that's the, I mean, just like nor normally Matt, we're dealing with someone who starts small and wants [00:20:00] to move. Right. So they're, they're, you know, this was like, oh, well I'm in a, you know, enterprise and you just

Sheila Stafford: Well, that's where the problem is, right? Like you could, you have to understand like where is the, for sure like. Even today, like TeamSense and what we do. If you have a, a site that's less than a hundred people, you probably don't really really feel the pain yet. And so as your number of people like expand, like in your span of control of like the individual supervisors expand, like it's really, really painful.

And so I think again, it's that deep understanding of the space and like where they feel pain. I think A and then B

Learn Your Customers' Native Language & Use It When Communicating Impact
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Sheila Stafford: I talk a lot about like learning the native language, like being able to translate how what we do impacts their bottom line. Because at the 10,000 foot level, you can only like help them increase revenue or help them reduce costs.

And so like where are you? And then how do you link that very clearly on like we, like for example, we've reduced no call no show [00:21:00] by 60% within the first 30 days. And so a no call, no show for folks that don't understand is where you expect an employee to show up, but they just don't. And so the implications of that are.

I worked at General Motors, um, assembling pickup trucks for when I first came out of, uh, undergrad. the implications of that are like we have a assembly line and like you're installing rear seats and you're installing the front console and I'm installing the rear tire, and like rear seats isn't there, the truck doesn't move.

And so if we like the, the buzzer hits we're all supposed to be there and that person's absent, I immediately have downtime because now I need to figure out who's gonna go there. I. But because the jobs are different, you have to be specially trained, right? Like there's a special device to pick up the rear seat assembly, you have to thread it through a pickup truck that is moving down the line.

You have to put it in place. You have to drop eight fasteners every minute on the minute. I can't just take rear tire who's like a pick crew, zipping lugs and be like, oh, you're on rear seats today. Like it doesn't work like that. And so the [00:22:00] supervisor has to like reshuffle everybody. And like manufacturers know inherently.

What one minute of production is worth. And so when I was at GM 20 years ago, they would yell like $10,000 a minute, right? Like two minutes, three minutes. And like the clock is just ticking and you're like freaking out trying to get everything up and running. And so if I can reduce no call, no shows, which is automatic downtime, like let's say that you get it up in three minutes, it's still 30 grand just one day, just one incident of one person at a factory of.

3,500 people. 5,000 people. Like the ROI is just so, so, so fast. But I understand that 'cause I live that and so I can talk to them and say, and they're like, yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right. Like this makes perfect sense on why we'd go do this.

Matt Amundson: The thing that I feel like you're saying without saying and, and uh, is, you know, there's, there's oftentimes founders that get sort of enamored with categories. I. Whether they're like, Hey, I wanna build something in heath, health, tech, FinTech, MarTech, [00:23:00] sales tech, whatever it is, they see a, a gap in the marketplace.

They're like, oh yeah, you know, when I was working here, when I was working there, when I was working with these types of customers, like this was a, a pain point. I think I'm gonna go build something there. What I, what I find so fascinating about you, Sheila, is that. You have such a deep subject matter expertise in these customers.

Very specifically, like this is not stuff that you've learned over the course of your journey as being a CEO. It's all the stuff that you learned over the course of your career that has led you to be a CEO. And so that knowledge deeply informed the way that you built a product and, and brought a product to market.

It's not like, Hey, we're just gonna. Create an MVP and throw it out there and see what are the parts that people really latch onto, and then we'll turn those into our primary, you know, benefits or values of the business. And I find that so fascinating, and I think it's one of the things that's probably led to the early, uh, success of your business is that you can just go out there and speak customer right off [00:24:00] the bat.

You know, learning the language of your buyer becomes such a critical component to ear, early or even full scale at uh, or fully scaled success of a business.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, I think that's true and I think about that a lot on just kind of the founder journey and like what are the elements that have made us successful. The other thing that's unique about what I've seen is I remember reading the story about the founder of Vanta, and so she went and it's like, oh, I saw that, like this security thing was gonna be a thing, and so she took a year off.

Like read everything about it, like just kept consuming information and then like, you know, educated herself on it and then went like, okay, great. You're gonna run that playbook. Try to do that. In manufacturing, the public is not invited. Like you don't get to go in and see how the Pierce fire trucks are built.

You don't get to go in and see how General Motors is like puts their trucks together. You don't get to go in and see this aluminum factory. And so the ability for others to be able to. [00:25:00] Understand and build with such deep knowledge in this space in particular is really hard, where like you see a lot of software, um, out there that is servicing, you know, retail or hospitality.

Like great, like you could sit in a store and quickly understand some of the details. Like you're allowed to go in there, but you're not allowed to go inside these factories.

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: You know, I have this thing, oh wait, Sam raised his finger, just so you know, that's we've trained him to not raise his hand. Okay. Um, Sam, now that you've raised your finger, what can we do for you?

Sam Guertin: I was just gonna say there's one kind case that doesn't fit the mold. 'cause I agree most of the time you can't go in these factories. However, one of the coolest. Uh, experiences that I've had. Uh, it was a one day thing. I actually went on a tour of the Toyota plant. It was so cool. And they do so many cool things,

Sheila Stafford: It is mind blowing, right?

Sam Guertin: yeah.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah. Like, I don't know. That's why I fell in love with [00:26:00] manufacturing. Like I was a, I was a high school intern and got this opportunity. They were trying to get more people into manufacturing and so, uh, I got this opportunity to go to the Ford Stamping plant in Buffalo. I grew up in Buffalo, New York.

The Ford Stamping Plant we're stamping out body sides to the 1998 Ford Wind Star. And you can imagine like these presses are like the size of a room and they would come down on the metal and like the floor like kind of shakes every time the thing comes down. And then those body sides went up to Canada, uh, to Oakville assembly where they actually put the vehicle together.

And so as part of the experience, we got to go to the assembly plant. And that is where I was like. This is so cool. Like it's unbelievable, like the number of parts and like the conveyor belts and like the robots everywhere and the vision system. And I mean, this is back in the, you know, the late nineties, early two thousands.

And so after seeing that, I was like, that's where I'm gonna go work. And that's what kind of inspired me to go get my mechanical engineering degree and why I joined General Motors, uh, when I first came out.

Matt Amundson: [00:27:00] That's awesome.

Craig Rosenberg: So here's what I was gonna say before Sam lifted his finger. Matt, is it okay if I jump in?

Matt Amundson: Yeah. Sam, any other field trips you'd like to tell us about? Do you, did you

have any zoo stories?

Craig Rosenberg: Um, yeah. No. Thank you for your field trip anecdote, Sam. Um, we hope that it, it does really well on TikTok the, um. The

Why Building Deep Expertise & Building Something For Someone is Critical for Startups
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Craig Rosenberg: people think, I'm like just making things so basic when I say this, but like, you know, I'm in, I work in venture. I dunno if you know that, but like when someone,

Sam Guertin: Well, this one time.

Craig Rosenberg: for someone, you know, a lot of people build because of the tech or the innovation to go do or they build something that does something. And then they figure out it. It actually is very hard to market and create a go to market unless you, the founder and the team and the organization has built [00:28:00] some something for someone they understand. And by the way, someone can be the ideal customer profile, right? In this case, the manufacturing. I mean, look at you.

I have no idea what you're talking about on some of these things. You know, and like, because you, you deeply understand it and you understand them and you understand how they work. And like that is how you can build the product, the go to market in these things, uh, for them, right? Be more effectively because you underst understand them and what they're going.

Through and like, yeah, you had a compelling event like covid, but look at the way you adjusted. It's 'cause you understand them and what they're trying to do. I think that that is a, a really big deal. Now, there is hope, like if you went function in tech first, it's okay, but you gotta be able to go build deep expertise in this, the person and organizations that you sell to, um, in order to be effective other.

Otherwise it doesn't, you know, it's very hard to build. [00:29:00] B2B software, unless you do that. So that's the thing I'm hearing from you. It's like it's this deep embrace. I'm pretty sure you could have made something else too, you know what I mean? Uh, just based on all the things that, well, you probably will considering how successful you are in there.

But yeah, that, I think that's a really big point.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah. I think, you know, I heard, um, early on, I, I heard this kind of analogy of like the market for like a, a startup, if you consider it like a log, right? And so you've got this log, if you wanna catch the log on fire. You don't like take a match and like run it down the log and be like, oh, I hope one of these verticals is gonna catch on fire.

Like you really kind of like just focus all of your energy, all of your resources on like one like slice of the vertical. And like what will naturally happen is like these kind of ancillary verticals that are right next to that, that's that one will like look over and be like, Hey, like that looks really interesting.

I think we can use it. And they'll start pulling it. And so I think, you know, early on, like obviously we only sold to [00:30:00] manufacturing logistics, but I mentioned our business has been built on inbound and so we get a lot of inbound interest. And so as we've kind of progressed, it's just been fascinating on the number of verticals like we serve now.

Um, even though like we don't even market to them like still today, like we don't market to them and I actively will go and meet with them because I. I think that I don't want to divert like our product team focus. I don't wanna divert our support team focus. I want to continue, um, to serve manufacturing logistics for a variety of reasons.

But when they come in, I was like, listen, like we're not for you. Like we're built for them. Like, help me understand like what problem are you trying to solve to like make sure that like we can do what they expect us to do and that we can still do it well. And so what I've found is, you know, like, um, one of the early ones was casinos. So I flew out to this casino, they've got large number of hourly employees, and I was like, help me understand, like, what do you want with this? Like, we, we don't, we're not built for you. And when they explained to me like their business model, I was like, oh [00:31:00] my God. It is like if you had just a control room of the casino floor.

You we're just looking at all the kind of like metrics and KPIs, what they're tracking on, like on the ready. You would think there's a manufacturing floor on the other side. I mean, they're tracking how fast the dealers are spitting out cards, like what their take rate. Like you name it, it's nearly the same KPIs.

And I was just like, whoa. Like that's crazy. And so now we like serve, uh, a handful of casinos and they love the product and so I think, you know, don't worry about focusing. Early on, like they will pick it up and like you'll, you'll, you'll be, you know, kind of learning in the process as well. What, what drives their business.

Matt Amundson: That's amazing. I think, uh, there are so few people that would take a time out and say, Hey, you know what, lemme just go evaluate your business and see if I'm actually a good fit for you. In most cases, people are like, oh, you have money to spend. I have a service to sell you, or I have a product to sell you.

And I think a lot of early stage businesses learn that the hard way. [00:32:00] Right. They'll see this sort of big, uh, you know, sexy logo come their way or, or, or a business from outside the category that they traditionally serve come their way and they're like, wow, you know, this is gonna look awesome on our logo scroll, like, you know, if we could ever convince these people to do a case study with us, like this is, this will be a great PS at the bottom of every prospecting email that we send.

And in a lot of cases, if the product is not built. For that buyer or for that customer, um, like sort of retrofitting your product into their business, uh, and sort of, uh, creating tech debt or diverting, uh, product and, and engineering resources away from, you know, building out the core product to build something very specifically.

It can sink a business. Like it, it doesn't just become like a multi quarter problem, but like it could like take you outta business. And so I guess talk to us a little bit about, I mean you gave us the example with the casino, but how do you sort of measure against, wow, this would [00:33:00] be awesome for us? You know, this would look great in a board deck versus, uh, you know, I gotta be really cautious here about making sure that my resources are, are being deployed appropriately.

Sheila Stafford: I mean, we,

How Do You Measure the Value Your Product Delivers to Customers & Why Founders Need to Focus on NRR
---

Sheila Stafford: we make sure that we can add value. Like I think that's probably the, the biggest takeaway is like. How are you measuring? Because that's, that's the one thing about manufacturing that I know for sure is that like I can link my benefits that we deliver to the business to dollars and like they, we can track that.

We can make sure that we're delivering ROI And so as new folks come in, like can we do the same thing? Like what can KPIs are they looking at to know whether or not this is successful and can they articulate that to me? I think it's really on like founder focus, right? Like we cannot, like we absolutely, to your point, like the business will die if I start diluting.

Imagine like my support team, like we've got hundreds of customers and a handful of support folks. Like if they come in and they've got these like weird problems that they're trying to like fit the system around, like that's [00:34:00] gonna create problems long term and it's just this kind of cancer that like grows through the business.

Same thing with customer support, same thing with. Even the sales team on how they talk about value to the customer. Like you continue to bifurcate eventually, like you lose the message across the board. And so I think it's really having that discipline. Um, I also think that in this day and age, your like net revenue retention KPIs are probably one of the most important that you should pay attention to as a founder.

'cause it really talks about customer love. There's, um, a quote from our board member, uh, Brett Queen. He tells me like when you talk about software and like he's old Salesforce and um, anyway, he was like, the only only moat in software is true customer love, right? Like time and money can solve anything. Um, but if you have true customer love, that's the only moat.

And so for me, like that's part like net revenue retention. So like, do we have true customer love? And I'm not willing to like put a chink in our net revenue retention numbers so that we can take some like shitty [00:35:00] account that we shouldn't take anyway for like some short term. Bump in revenue and they're gonna churn in, you know, a year anyway.

Like, that's just not worth it, uh, as a business.

Matt Amundson: Fascinating. I am, uh, I, I, you know, we, we meet with so many founders, you know, are willing to roll the dice on stuff like this. And, you know, I think the level of discipline that you mentioned there is, um. That's a critical component and whether, whether that's like sort of diverting and, and moving into new markets or going multi-product before you're maybe ready to, like, having that little level of discipline is important.

How does, you know, how do you, how do you tell that story? Like in, in your board meetings and, and, and is the board supportive of, uh, well, I know you have a great board, but

Sheila Stafford: Yeah,

How to Drive Alignment Between Founders and Their Boards
---

Matt Amundson: how do you drive alignment between yourself and your board?

Sheila Stafford: I mean, I, I love our board, like, and, and this is part of like, you know, as a founder and. I think part of it is I got a little bit lucky and I can tell the story of how we landed with, um, [00:36:00] with Bonfire. There's a, a fun story there, but, um, I, I just knew like, we were like two peas in a pod and like on the same page.

And so I think, you know, I'm always, always, always talking to Brett. Um, he's on Slack all the time, like we're driving, like having conversations and so I think from that standpoint, um, we tend to always be in lockstep, but new. When they were investing that we were kind of, of the same mentality and of the same breed.

And so I don't have that problem yet. Now granted it's still a pretty small board, um, but like it's been great and I think they're so supportive and like the last thing that they want is that have us make these mistakes and then, you know, die because like we're trying to serve eight different masters and we don't have a single like, unified product plan or like what we're gonna build next.

I think maintaining that focus, like we do ask ourselves like, okay, you know, like should we continue to build for this vertical? And like when would we move to horizontal? Because I very much believe [00:37:00] that this business will be that digital connection to all frontline workers. And so being thoughtful of when, but like now it's still too early and there's still too much opportunity.

And so it's like, okay, like we'll vet these customers and if we can take them great. And then we'll learn. And so we've got folks in healthcare that are on the system right now. I think we've got, I dunno, maybe five healthcare companies. We've got universities that are on the system right now. And so we can learn about education like through universities.

We've got some, uh, we'll say like restaurant food service type, like one of the ones that we can say is, um, all the frontline workers at La Dodger Stadium where they play utilize TeamSense. And so like, not manufacturing, not logistics, but there you go.

Matt Amundson: Let's go.

Sheila Stafford: right?

Matt Amundson: We love it.

Sheila Stafford: Uh, they're phenomenal and like, you know, like the vetting process for them we're like, help, help me understand.

And they're like, Sheila, if people no call, no show. Or if we have too many absenteeism and we can't open like a specific [00:38:00] restaurant, like we only have like four hours to make our money. Like that is a huge impact to our business. And I was like, oh shit. Like you can link what we do directly to dollars, like.

Let's chat. Like that means that we're gonna be able to do something cool here. And so La Dodger Stadium, awesome. Awesome customer of ours. Um, but again, like they, they kind of came in, we vetted 'em, and you know, it's been a phenomenal partnership

Matt Amundson: I mean, of course it is, is maybe the greatest customer. That's my, that's my bucket list customer at some point.

Craig Rosenberg: Geez. Yeah, this is it. By the way. All I could think about was as you started to go down that road, was, does he have a dodger hat nearby?

Matt Amundson: Yeah.

Sheila Stafford: Boom. And you didn't even know. Like I could have, I could have gave you that one, but you didn't even know. That was just

pure luck. Yeah.

Gotta love

Craig Rosenberg: So, but now, like, so, um, you know, now, so like how,

How to Build out a Sales Team from Scratch & Growing Beyond Founder-Led Sales
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Craig Rosenberg: how big is your sales team?

Sheila Stafford: Uh, our sales team is six folks right [00:39:00] now.

Craig Rosenberg: And, um, I'm, this is, uh, sorry to go down this route, Matt. I'm just so curious because you're so passionate about the story, right? And you're the founder. And then when you expand into having reps go out and, um, again, I'll mention, oh my God, are you serious? Sorry about the beep. The, um, as you know, as, as I've seen, when you move from like the founder into folks that, you know, basically had to come in and learn the business, um, you know, how's that transition?

I mean, do they, you know, did you hire for expertise or did you hire for skills and build their expertise? How did you expand your knowledge and ability to go in there? Like literally walk the floor, I'm sure and just be able to understand, or, well, everyone knows Dodger Gaman wants you to dodge your dog, but like, you know, uh, tell us about that transition and how you bridge that gap.

'cause six means you got past the [00:40:00] two mark and then brought on the new one. So I'd, I'd love to hear more about that.

Sheila Stafford: So the very first one, I think, uh, was a pretty special hire. And so this person actually worked with me in my past life and I knew that he was really good at sales, but uniquely had grown up on the manufacturing floor. So he actually had experience on the manufacturing floor. He did not have SaaS experience, uh, which was unique for both of us, right?

Like I ran these businesses and manufacturing before. Um, but I brought him on just knowing that like, okay, like he knows how to sell. I don't need to teach him, you know, like what a funnel is and all of that stuff. So he came on board. Um, and then the two of us were kind of sales for a while, and then we got ourselves into like some pretty big like enterprise deals.

And I was like, oh man, like I am in way over my head. So my next move was to get a consultant. And so I got this, uh, this guy that like did enterprise deals and was running kind of a sales consult consultancy. And so I [00:41:00] brought him in to be like, help us understand, like teach Adam, like enterprise sales.

Like he knows and he had come from when I was my time at Ford and Fluke. Hardware sales. So he was selling into manufacturing sites, uh, with like Fluke products. And so I was like, teach us about this enterprise stuff. So this guy started, uh, advising on us and just fell in love with like our company and our customer.

And he was like, you know, I'm thinking about closing my business and coming back in, I was like, great, like, do you wanna join us? And he was like, yes. And so I was able to like get him in, which was really helpful. And he laid the foundation for. Like the basics of, you know, sash, which I think is, is where our gaps were.

Um, and then since then, like we've, we've kind of moved towards hiring, uh, folks that are experienced in enterprise, like software sales, right? And so it's a typical enterprise cycle per se. And then we teach them a lot about like, why it matters, how to help the customer, like articulate the value and kind of like walk them through that.

Um, and then I plug in, you know, [00:42:00] wherever it needed. And so oftentimes, like I'll jump in and meet, you know, some of the leaders at, at those companies, um, to talk a little bit about our story and like why we're built for them, uh, and some of those details. And so in short, early on, like went for expertise in the customer later on, went for expertise in the sales process.

Matt Amundson: Brilliant.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. I love it. about that, but seemed to have worked.

well, yeah. Clearly, clearly. Yeah. So that's great. But when you train for the market.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, you know, how do we extract what you know, from your brain into these folks' heads? Like, is it like just by you going hand to hand with them or is there ways that you've been able to do that and enable them to be able to have that same credibility that you have or, or they don't and they bring you in?

I, what does that look like?

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, I mean, I would say like we use all of the tools that you'd expect us to use. So [00:43:00] Gong has been. Incredible for us and just being able to like record and like have them listen. And so there's been, you know, a handful of times where I've gotten on with the customers and talked about the founding story and what we did and like kind of pulled out of them like different KPIs, uh, that, um, that they might be interested in where we could kind of link ourselves to that value.

And so there's for sure plenty of ways for them to kind of self-learn. Um, and then we've got, you know, all of the traditional like training and documentation. I do think, um, you know, I try to make sure that I am, because like, let's be honest, like the current environment is really freaking hard for manufacturers, right?

Like, it's like 25% tariff, 50% tariffs. Like, you know, it's just like they can't plan their businesses right now. And so I am have this like irrational fear that the messaging of the way that we go to market is going to change. And if I'm not listening to the customers, like my team won't know. Just because of the nuances, right?

And so I will go in and [00:44:00] pick gong calls, um, and like literally on Friday afternoon, I listen to like two hours of gong calls. They're random. I switch different AEs and then like I'll have 'em on in the background as I'm doing other stuff. And then if I hear the AEs that like where they kind of didn't get it right or they need like a little bit more depth, or the customer is frustrated or like listening to the customer message, like I'll jump in and be like, Hey, like I'm not a stalker.

Like, I just like to hear the, the messaging to make sure that we're good. But like, here's areas that you can improve and, you know, one of the things that's, um, you know, kind of about manufacturing and there's this idea of just continuous improvement, right? Of just like getting like 1% better every day.

And like, there's always tweaks and we kind of build that into the, the ecosystem here of the company. And so like, nobody's offended, they're like, Hey, thanks for telling me. Like, that's amazing. Um, and I understand that there's some things that I will uniquely know and I, I don't necessarily know to like brain dump them until I see it and I'm like, oh, shit, I need to tell 'em that.

Craig Rosenberg: That's cool. Oh, I, I, I think that's [00:45:00] a. That's a real thing, you know, from what I can tell. And you've made that transition really well. Um, so, okay, so we, we, we have that, and now we've su you know, you've, you've got this ability to successfully, um, onboard sales reps.

Modern Marketing Experiments & Can PR Still Pack A Punch?
---

Craig Rosenberg: I'm gonna move back to marketing and the PR stuff.

So what is the strategy there? Is that, um, I mean like, are you the focal point? Like how are you guys sort of. Carpet bombing the market from a PR perspective, from both the content and storyline to like other sort of tactics that go along with that.

Sheila Stafford: Yeah, we've done a lot of experimentation here. I think, um, I'm really unique in, in the space where somebody who's kind of like grown up in manufacturing is now in technology. Like that is rare in general. And then the fact that I'm a woman makes it even rarer. Um, and so I definitely get a, a lot of, [00:46:00] um, a lot more attention on like my personal LinkedIn than the company LinkedIn.

Like we could post something on the company and like nobody really follows the company, but people tend to follow me. And so I'm really thoughtful of that and like what I share and like who are the audiences? What I found is that even like when we were early, early, early, starting the company, you know, I worked at GM and Whirpool Corp and Fortive and stuff like that, as I mentioned, and when we were founding and I wanted like, Hey, can I just get your ear, can you give me some feedback on this product?

Like, is this something of interest to you? When I reached out to, to my network, uh, men and women, the women were like four times more likely than the men to actually say yes and follow through on it. The men would be like, oh yeah, sure. Like I'll connect you with someone. And like, and it's never happened.

And so early on I was like, there is something there about like women in the network. Um, and so what I've kind of uncovered in the keynote that I actually spoke on Monday was with the Women in Manufacturing group, [00:47:00] is that like, that's like a really, really strong like sisterhood. Like you look at somebody and you're like, you know, you're the plant leader at so and such giant factory, like.

You kick ass because like you're the only plant leader in the entire North America that is a woman. And like you're doing your thing and there's this like mutual respect that, um, seems to happen and it's like that's a really great area for us to kind of like poke and like it happens that women are in a lot of really big companies and they wanna help like other women succeed.

And so like, might not help most of 90, 98% of your audience, but like. Uh, it works really well for us. And so if I have a contact there, I will ask, especially if it's a woman like, Hey, help me out. Like, can you connect me with the right person or gimme some feedback or whatever. Um, I think, you know, doing that on LinkedIn is better.

We've seen good luck. Um, here's a secret, like they're gonna be appreciative of them telling them, uh, there's a, a product out there called stacker and we just use stacker. And what they [00:48:00] are is they basically, you pay them to post articles to stacker. Then stacker will, are you guys familiar with

Matt Amundson: Mm-hmm.

Sheila Stafford: Okay. So then stacker will, um, will basically collect a variety of articles and then make them available to like local media, uh, so that like they can fill spots, right? Like local media's always looking for stories. Always looking for stories. And so we have a lot of proprietary data on like manufacturing in general and absenteeism in general.

Um, and so we were able to make some cuts on, uh, places where there were ICE raids. Like, what happened? Like, did folks, like when the ice raids were announced and gonna happen, like, did we see any fluctuations in, um, in attendance? And we were able to find that there was some interesting data. And so we wrote an article, put it up on stacker, stacker, put it on the news wire, and then now all of a sudden, like we're getting syndicated.

Uh, across a lot of like really local where like manufacturing's big, which is perfect, uh, for our market. [00:49:00] And so like that's another one where, you know, we've used PR to kind of, um, continue to gin and like again, it's like, you know, what data do we have that's really interesting that happens to be kind of in line with what's happening in the world.

Um, and then, you know, events continue to be strong. Like obviously meeting in person, uh, is really great. You have to pick your events. And then we're, we're toying with direct mail. I, I think, you know, you've got to break through. Um, and I don't know, I sometimes we have these crazy ideas 'cause I'm pretty convinced that like, just traditionally, like you have to be unique.

And so, I don't know. I like my team jokes. They're like, she lives the idea fountain. Like some of which are great, like, let's go do that. Some of which are terrible, which is fine. Like just tell me they're terrible. I don't care. Um, but, you know, we're toying with, because we drive so much ROI like, what if we just sent.

To a factory, like a giant box of like a hundred grand candy bars and be like, this is how much money you could save. Like, 'cause it's like literally like that. And you're like, okay, there's no way that they're not gonna get a response. I think, you know, one [00:50:00] of our Right.

Matt Amundson: I.

Craig Rosenberg: I don't know the percentage of ideas that people at your, uh, office call crazy and throw out that one is a good one. And if. Need delivery. Sam may be going on a field trip to one of these. Uh,

Sheila Stafford: These factories, he's going to Toyota, Toyota's a great, great, uh, prospect for us.

Craig Rosenberg: That's a great, I love that. Yeah. Have some fun

Sheila Stafford: some fun and try it out and like, I don't know, so lots of, lots of fun opportunities, but then tie in. Um, and so yeah, that will be my

Craig Rosenberg: And, and by the way, Matt, how I actually said PR instead of LinkedIn because like a lot of the guests on the show are just LinkedIn is their key platform

and then you went to LinkedIn and like it is, man, it, that thing is the most powerful platform right now in B2B. Like it is nuts,

Sheila Stafford: Yeah. Do you know what's wild? I was talking to an investor and, uh, he had just gotten off a, a phone call and he is like, Sheila, like this is [00:51:00] crazy. I just got off this call with the most enterprisey of enterprise software. That was how he described it. Didn't tell me what it was though. And he is like, you're not gonna believe it.

100% of their pipeline comes from TikTok. And I was like, what are you talking about? And he's like, it's crazy. 'cause the algorithm is just so good that even though it's like completely like, like people are on TikTok, like personally not looking for business and like yet they're still able to drive it.

And like I am not a TikTok user. I am old. I'm like, shit. Like we're gonna try, like what do we got to lose? Right? Like put a couple grand at it and see like if this guy's saying it works for enterprise, I mean we might as well try that channel. So I'll keep you posted. We don't have it up and running yet, uh, but we're getting our content ready to go.

Matt Amundson: it. Love it. Well, unbelievable show. Uh, this was incredible. I mean, full of great stories. Both, uh, both like heartwarming and, you know, stuff that we can all sort of take to market like immediately. That's what we love is not just the strategy of how to build a great company, but the [00:52:00] tactics that are driving that great company.

So, Sheila, thank you so much for joining us today. This is, this is your and my second great conversation and every time I, I'm, I'm, I'm wrapping up talking to you. I, you know, I'm looking forward to the next time we can talk. This was, this was great.

Sheila Stafford: Likewise. Thank you for having me.

Craig Rosenberg: Thanks for coming. And by the way, now that, just to warn you, Sheila, part of the cuts that will come out will be about my, uh, accusing me of using a OL for my internet. Um, it, yeah. Yeah. I deserve time.

Sheila Stafford: Fair enough.

Craig Rosenberg: Thanks for coming. That was the transaction. That was perfect.[00:53:00]