The Transaction

TT - 086 - David Politis
===

David Politis: [00:00:00] I am such a believer in IRL in real life types [00:00:05] of things because,

David Politis: no matter what anyone is saying, I still think people, especially if we're talking about B2B enterprise sales, [00:00:10] people are buying from people still like that. At the end of the day that big ASP, [00:00:15] high ASP purchase is still happening, people to people.

Craig Rosenberg: David Politis. [00:00:20] How you doing?

David Politis: I am doing great. I'm doing great. It's good to see you again.

Craig Rosenberg: see you again. [00:00:25] By the way, is New York as hot as the Bay Area right now? We hit like 90 [00:00:30] yesterday.

David Politis: I wish it was that. I wish it was that hot. It was [00:00:35] one day in New York, like two weeks ago. It was 80 and it was as if [00:00:40] it everyone was out. People just. It's like they just quit their jobs. Everyone's like out in the [00:00:45] park, everyone's doing their thing. Um, and then the next day was 32 degrees.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:00:50] Yeah. That, that is nuts, man. I mean, I, I was on a call with a woman who lives in, [00:00:55] uh, you love the, a lot of people are moving to Long Island City, [00:01:00] huh?

David Politis: Yes. That is a, that is a place to be

Craig Rosenberg: it's the new, uh, what was the [00:01:05] Jersey place everyone was moving to? Uh. Hoboken. Hoboken Yeah, it's the

David Politis: exact. [00:01:10] Exactly.

Craig Rosenberg: anyway, she's like I said, I said, well, you know, sorry I'm late.

Craig Rosenberg: She's [00:01:15] like, yeah, that's fine. We are gonna end like 10 minutes early because it's so nice out that I have to go

David Politis: [00:01:20] Exactly. Exactly.

​[00:01:25] [00:01:30] [00:01:35] [00:01:40]

Craig Rosenberg: today, transaction folks, uh, [00:01:45] we are starting the, the pod. This is a FA first time, uh, where [00:01:50] Matt got called into a meeting and he will try to pop in.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:01:55] So if you hear Matt come in, uh, mid podcast, um, don't be [00:02:00] alarmed. That was part of the plan, but.

Introducing David Politis,
---

Craig Rosenberg: The good news is I'm with my [00:02:05] good buddy, David Politis, who I've known for years, and I, last time I gave like a [00:02:10] 35 minute intro. I will try not to, but here, here's what I would say. [00:02:15] Um, David is a multi-time [00:02:20] entrepreneur starting literally outta Tulane or Emery?

Craig Rosenberg: Emery,

David Politis: Emery. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:02:25] All the New Yorkers either go to Tulane, Emery or Duke. And then, um, uh. [00:02:30] You know, and I started working with him then, and he, he was just kicking [00:02:35] ass and taking names even at that age. And then he's had multiple outcomes along the way. [00:02:40] And then now he's living in New York and he has [00:02:45] not another CEO podcast, which is like one of the better ones out [00:02:50] there.

Craig Rosenberg: It's gr great. You're running events now, you're still doing advisory. [00:02:55] You are like the, the founder's best friend and you know, business is [00:03:00] going so well that he doesn't know what to do with himself. So he, last time [00:03:05] came on the show is probably the most informative and deep sort of discussion we've had on the things that.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:03:10] Uh, he's seeing working and so we just really wanted to have him back. [00:03:15] Um, Matt will have to listen to the first part via recording 'cause he was pretty excited to [00:03:20] have you and, uh, the transaction welcomes back. David Politis.

David Politis: [00:03:25] Thank you very much, Craig. I, I'm so excited. I, how many people have been on this show? [00:03:30] More than once.

Craig Rosenberg: you? Sam has been, has fun [00:03:35] half a dozen.

David Politis: Half a dozen. Okay. So I feel I'm, I'm in rare fight air, and when I [00:03:40] get to three, you know that, that'll be a, I want like a, a plaque or something, [00:03:45] you know.

Sam Guertin: Yeah, that's Scott Albro territory.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, Al Albro Albro has been a [00:03:50] multi-time guest. Um, so let's see. So you're at two, I think there's a, a few [00:03:55] people at two or LO's at two, right? Um, Jen UA [00:04:00] two. Yeah. So you're, you're getting there buddy. You'll, you'll, you'll get, you'll do your [00:04:05] time. You keep doing these, the amazing content you're doing and then, you know, we'll find new reasons to bring you [00:04:10] on.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, alright. So. You know how this show works. [00:04:15] One is the first thing we ask you is for an amazing Go-To-Market story. Then the [00:04:20] second thing we ask you is like, you know, what are the one to three things you're seeing working out there with all your work [00:04:25] with founders in the market today? Um, and, you know, what is it and what are [00:04:30] examples, et cetera.

Craig Rosenberg: Now I do wanna mention, do you still give out that amazing, uh, [00:04:35] like let's call it a book that you wrote? Yeah. That thing's incredible.

David Politis: Yeah, the [00:04:40] Startup Founder Survival Guide, Google Doc 60 page Google Doc. It's a public Google Doc [00:04:45] out there. You can just find it. And, uh, I've, I've tried to start moving a lot of that stuff to the [00:04:50] substack, slowly, one piece by one piece and kind of redoing it as I go for each lesson. [00:04:55] Um, but um, yeah, I, I still put that out there.

Craig Rosenberg: that out there. It will be linked [00:05:00] in the show notes.

David Politis: Awesome.

Craig Rosenberg: you go. I think that was just a reason for me to bring the show notes [00:05:05] back in. David, just as a heads up there, I'm a huge fan of people that go, they will be in the show [00:05:10] notes and literally, I have no idea where the show notes are.

Craig Rosenberg: I don't, I've never gone to show notes, [00:05:15] but, but fuck it. Let's do it.

Story Time
---

Craig Rosenberg: All right. Tell me a story. David, what do you got?

David Politis: [00:05:20] Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you one that I actually literally, I saw this the other day, which I, which I really [00:05:25] like. Um, someone who's selling to sales engineers. It's a new AI [00:05:30] native company selling to sales engineers. And I think, um. [00:05:35] One of the things that I'm hearing from a lot of these companies is they're going out, they're talking to prospects, and [00:05:40] the prospects are saying to them, well, I'm just gonna build it myself.

David Politis: Like, I'll just use Claude. I'll teach you this [00:05:45] skill. I'll just teach it my, I, I'll just do it myself. So what this guy did is, uh, and [00:05:50] I'm, I'm trying to remember the URL, but he created basically a page a, a micro [00:05:55] site that was dedicated to Claude skills for sales engineers. So [00:06:00] he, he wrote the Claude skills, he then published them on this [00:06:05] site, and it's behind just a registration form, but you put in your registration.

David Politis: [00:06:10] And you've got, I think it's like 14 of these Claude skills, and I thought that [00:06:15] that was a really real, I, I loved that idea because it just leans [00:06:20] into, you want to build it yourself, no problem. Actually, we're going to give you those Claude [00:06:25] skills. You can have them for free knowing very much that, you know, of course his product has, is [00:06:30] much more comp complex SOC two certified.

David Politis: It's this, he's got his forward deployed [00:06:35] engineers. All the stuff that you would, that you would expect, and I, it's simple. But I think in [00:06:40] today's world, I, for, for whatever reason, it just, it resonates. I mean, you, I [00:06:45] learned from you back. Let's talk about the VoIP days. I learned when you were running [00:06:50] Tipt and VoIP, VoIP review and all that.

David Politis: Not VoIP review.

Craig Rosenberg: Alright. VoIP news, man.

David Politis: News. VoIP [00:06:55] News. VoIP News. And so I actually got from that idea, I dunno if you remember, but I bought, I [00:07:00] started buying up VoIP. X kind of domain names. And I started building [00:07:05] my own, you know, lead gen sites with content and everything else. And I think this is kind of [00:07:10] a similar thing, is like, hey, we're just gonna, we're gonna put this out there to the world.

David Politis: It's really [00:07:15] useful. It's really interesting. It's, you know, you can play with it. Um, but at the end of the day, it's going to lead back [00:07:20] to you actually need a, a real product. So anyway, I like that a lot.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:07:25] Yeah. That's a great story. You know, I would add to that. So, uh, you know, I taught, it's [00:07:30] funny. I love when, uh, well, I don't love, I don't love. I don't know why I [00:07:35] said that.

Craig Rosenberg: I'm, it was love in a sarcastic way. I love when people come to me [00:07:40] and the first instinct when I bring up Could you do this with a [00:07:45] horizontal AI platform, is they immediately go into objection handle. Like [00:07:50] they're gonna convince me not to. And, um, [00:07:55] you know, it, it's as it. I'll explain my, my [00:08:00] philosophy there, which is similar to what this guy did, which is, bro, there's [00:08:05] a gigantic fucking elephant in the room.

Craig Rosenberg: You either embrace it or it runs you over, [00:08:10] and like, so if they want to build it, tell them to [00:08:15] go ahead, right? And you actually, there's two ways you can handle [00:08:20] it. One is you tell 'em, look, if you, you know, let me just tell you the two or three [00:08:25] reasons why you might. Not, that might not work for you, just keep that in mind.

Craig Rosenberg: But in the meantime, [00:08:30] go ahead and build it as, and what this guy's clearly doing is let me send you a website, I'll [00:08:35] teach you how to build it.

David Politis: Exactly.

Craig Rosenberg: So you, you plant the seed there, [00:08:40] um, and then you put 'em in a unique nurture track and part of your nurture [00:08:45] track should actually be to keep feeding them more clawed stuff. But. [00:08:50] You also want to keep educating on stories of people moving from Claude [00:08:55] to them, because now it'll take a while and a lot of people are under the gun to [00:09:00] report to the board revenue, but you're not winning that deal anyway and you're gonna spend a lot of time on it. [00:09:05] So if you're not gonna win it, embrace the elephant in the room.

Craig Rosenberg: Robert Koehler, [00:09:10] my, my buddy who's a sales consultant calls it the elephant in the room. Play. Give it in, give it up. [00:09:15] So like when I was a Gartner analyst, it was the same thing I'd say. 'cause I used to do this [00:09:20] thing that the, I don't think the analysts normally do there. I'd say, I'm gonna start saying some names.

Craig Rosenberg: Lemme [00:09:25] get your reaction. You know, so let's say they said I'm a email, uh, sales [00:09:30] email app. I'd say, okay, I'm gonna say this Outreach, SalesLoft. And they, you know, they immediately [00:09:35] go, well, we're better than them because of this. Um. If, and I, and I [00:09:40] would say to 'em, well look like if everyone's using one, I would be careful [00:09:45] on you.

Craig Rosenberg: You always wanna say yes. That's great. [00:09:50] And. Here's some things that people that use [00:09:55] that also do with us. So there's a product exercise, which is like, well, don't make 'em [00:10:00] rip something out every time to go with you. If you make this a binary thing, like you, either [00:10:05] them or them, you're likely gonna lose more often than you should.

Craig Rosenberg: Is [00:10:10] there a way to not make it a binary choice and say, great, I'm glad you're using this. What are you [00:10:15] doing for this? Because here's how people use both. Like everyone's [00:10:20] first instinct, and many people build that way. It's often, by the way, it's like a founder's [00:10:25] hubris. They, they know, Hey, we're better than them.

Craig Rosenberg: So like why can't we beat them? [00:10:30] Okay. And you will have, they will. And then you will have some use cases where you will beat them.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:10:35] Okay. And that'll throw you off, right? But in most cases, your average salesperson, [00:10:40] why do that to them? Instead? You want to be like, okay, well let's find, great. I'm so glad you have [00:10:45] NetSuite, ERP. You know, like, I love that you're gonna get 'em to rip out an ERP bro. Like good [00:10:50] luck. Like no, like, okay, but let's, that's totally fine. Many of my customers [00:10:55] have that. Let's talk about some of the other things and like, um, you know, could [00:11:00] you find a wedge? And by the way, a lot of enterprise salespeople, but doing that for years, my buddy.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:11:05] Uh, Ted Purcell is this great story. I shouldn't tell what company it was with, but they were an Oracle shop. He was [00:11:10] selling SAP. He's like, I, and they're one of my nine target accounts. I gotta get [00:11:15] in there. He's like. But I'm not gonna go in there and tell 'em to rip out everything they've already [00:11:20] built. I gotta find a wedge, a thing that they could go do.

Craig Rosenberg: Right. And, um, he [00:11:25] did and he ends up breaking in there. And his favorite thing is, and then, uh, you know, [00:11:30] uh, he saw the Oracle rep for them and they just looked at him across the [00:11:35] room. You know, he is like, I let the, I let the, uh. You know, the, the, the, uh, what is it, [00:11:40] the fox into the hen

David Politis: Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Something like that. Anyway, so I love, I love [00:11:45] that story. That's a very instructive story. This is a crazy time, man. If people can, [00:11:50] by the way, and I also love the fact that he has the confidence that you can build it, [00:11:55] but if you really want to, if you're really ready to do something more complex, you gotta use me.

Craig Rosenberg: That's [00:12:00] self-awareness too, of like what they

Craig Rosenberg: can or can't do.

David Politis: Yeah. I, I really, [00:12:05] I think also just all the, this is not new. It's all the educa the [00:12:10] education stuff, you know, I think people are looking, people know their jobs are getting [00:12:15] disrupted. People know shit is changing, and if you can help them kind of navigate that in [00:12:20] whatever way, give them these CLA skills, you know, talk to them about what the best practices are.

David Politis: I went [00:12:25] to another one who they were doing, they, they did for, this was for sales enablement. They [00:12:30] had sales enablements, value leaders, basically at a breakfast, and it was a [00:12:35] workshop, breakfast. They had a little panel for 30 minutes, 45 minutes, and I was there and I, I, I was [00:12:40] on the panel and then they broke into four groups of five.

David Politis: And they [00:12:45] essentially got up on the whiteboard and it, this was like a couple hours and it was like first thing. [00:12:50] What has AI done for you and your jobs, like for your companies? What has it done? That has just [00:12:55] been game changing. Everyone's writing it down. Okay. Next, what are the things that [00:13:00] AI. Has done that have fucked up like something in your system.

David Politis: And now there's, there was like a long list, [00:13:05] right? These are, 'cause they've like hallucinated, whatever. One guy was like, it just started sending emails to the [00:13:10] completely wrong, like on LinkedIn. It just started sending messages to like the wrong people. And then the [00:13:15] third one was. What's your dream thing that AI could do for you in [00:13:20] your job, in your role?

David Politis: And it was so interesting 'cause they were literally getting every [00:13:25] 20 prospects. Were essentially telling them exactly how to sell to them, [00:13:30] exactly the things that they need ex, but at the same simultaneous time, all these people [00:13:35] are taking notes like crazy because their peers are talking about, oh, I did this and then I integrated with [00:13:40] this and then I did this.

David Politis: And they're, and so. There's something about being in the [00:13:45] room with these people as their job functions are changing. Whatever being [00:13:50] in the room, quote unquote, means that, I think then to your point, you can then navigate and, and [00:13:55] kind of figure out what's that right approach? What's that wedge? How do I message that wedge?

David Politis: [00:14:00] So I, I think there's something about, especially as the, the, the, the times are changing. I [00:14:05] think there's something around that.

Craig Rosenberg: I love that. Actually. I thought when you [00:14:10] started to go down the VoIP route, uh, 'cause remember when you guys all started coming out and [00:14:15] started moving up, market. Uh, the key was not to go to a big [00:14:20] company and get them to rip out their phone. That's impossible. What you would do [00:14:25] is you would say, oh, they opened a new office.

Craig Rosenberg: Everything's on the table, right? [00:14:30] That's the same thing,

David Politis: Same thing.

Craig Rosenberg: well, you, I'm gonna go into the CIO [00:14:35] and we're better than Avaya, so I'm gonna go get it ripped out. It doesn't matter if [00:14:40] you're better than Avaya, you're not ripping 'em out. You can infiltrate. Right. [00:14:45] Uh, and you do that by finding that wedge.

Craig Rosenberg: All right. I love that. I love that. The, let's go, [00:14:50] actually, you just brought up getting in the room. Can I just jump ahead? That is a big thing for you though. [00:14:55] Right. Like, you know, you're, you're,

The Business Impact of In-Person Events for B2B SaaS
---

Craig Rosenberg: you have a lot of thoughts on [00:15:00] events, on ways to get you, you've brought up some really good ideas to me that, uh, [00:15:05] you know how you share my post.

Craig Rosenberg: Well, I share your response to my post. The, [00:15:10] uh, you talked about. I love this one. We're gonna get. Do, [00:15:15] uh, essentially a work, an office workday, like where people could come in [00:15:20] and do, even though they're doing their own work together. But you get to do it with like 50 people. You had [00:15:25] workshops, you had all it just, so I, sorry, I just wanted to spur your mind 'cause you brought [00:15:30] that up.

Craig Rosenberg: 'cause I, right, when you were telling me that story, I'm like, oh man, Politis loves getting these guys in [00:15:35] the room and has a lot of thoughts on that. Sorry to, I know we gotta go to the second question, but you [00:15:40] spurred me on on that. I would love for you to talk about that. I think it's huge in today's day.

David Politis: I think I, I am [00:15:45] such a believer in IRL in real life [00:15:50] types of things because I think that the relationships that are, no matter what anyone is saying, I [00:15:55] still think people, especially if we're talking about B2B enterprise sales, people are buying from people still like [00:16:00] that. At the end of the day. The, the, that, that big.

David Politis: ASP high ASP purchase [00:16:05] is still happening, people to people and, and I think that when you get people in the [00:16:10] room, you can build relationships in a way that is, is, is you [00:16:15] cannot do virtually, you cannot do through automation. And so yeah, I. I [00:16:20] love it. I mean, one of the things I've been pushing my, the companies I work with right now, the, the, my big thing right now [00:16:25] is the World Cup like that is right now, that is my big push because what I tell [00:16:30] people, world Cup is actually literally a once in a lifetime op in the us at least a once [00:16:35] in a lifetime opportunity.

David Politis: It comes to the US every 40 something years. So basically you can [00:16:40] go to a prospect and say to them, once every 40 years, the World Cup comes to this country, [00:16:45] I would like to take you to the World Cup. Not in a suite, not we're gonna be in it [00:16:50] with the fans. Everything. I'm not gonna talk to you about business.

David Politis: I don't even care. I want to go to the World Cup. [00:16:55] Like, let's all go together. Let's enjoy ourselves. You go to that with them, and I've done this at [00:17:00] Warriors Games, Knicks games, I've done it all kinds of different events throughout the years. When you go to that [00:17:05] and you share. That once in a lifetime experience together, even if you do not know these [00:17:10] people, and they don't, they're the vendor and they're the, the, the relationship that gets [00:17:15] formed at that moment in time.

David Politis: I've seen people come out of that. I, one of my companies [00:17:20] just did this with the Warriors game, sat on the floor. The Warriors aren't, I love the Warriors, but they're not good this [00:17:25] year, you know, and they're basically sitting on the floor. They came out of that texting each other as [00:17:30] a group, you know, the couple of prospects with the couple of people from the company, like everyone texting and this.

David Politis: [00:17:35] You cannot replace that when the other vendor calls. When the person is like, let's go get a [00:17:40] consultant to build this in cloud code, and you call and have that, they're gonna take the call. They're gonna tell you pretty [00:17:45] much everything you know. Now, again, you said it before, it's the long game [00:17:50] because that relationship, you don't want to be sitting there.

David Politis: What does CDW, dude, CDW does it and they're. [00:17:55] Let's get the box at the Rangers game and you sit in the box and they're like, and now we're gonna present to you [00:18:00] CDW and our sponsors. And it's like, this is terrible. This is literally the worst event. [00:18:05] You know who, what buyer goes to the CDW event? They don't, you know what they do?

David Politis: I send my [00:18:10] junior person who wants to see the Ranger. They're like, I'll watch this ship, but I'm not buying anything. But [00:18:15] you go take the decision maker to that actual like really special event and they [00:18:20] will never, I, I really like, I. And I think that's like the highest end of that, [00:18:25] the special meal. The, you, you told me about a story about that special meal at that, that restaurant here [00:18:30] in New York.

David Politis: Like, but like, I think that that to me breaks through all the barriers. [00:18:35] Your attendance rate, your registration rate, your target customers, they, that, that is the kind [00:18:40] of thing that, that separates you from other vendors. And the price seems high. [00:18:45] Until you think about how much money you spend on all kinds of marketing that results in zero and [00:18:50] this you can make one, one purchase that basically guarantees you that [00:18:55] meeting.

Craig Rosenberg: Listen to this guy. By the way, the World Cup's gotta [00:19:00] be expensive, right?

David Politis: It's like 4,000 a ticket, 3,500 a ticket.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:19:05] Huh? If you have a high ticket item, that's worth it.

Sam Guertin: A little more than a Rangers [00:19:10] game

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Sam Guertin: speaking, speaking of teams not doing

David Politis: yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:19:15] Yeah. You had to bring up hockey with Guertin man. Northeast guys. Yeah. Are the [00:19:20] sharks any good, Sam?

Sam Guertin: Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: good. All right, I'm gonna go. [00:19:25] By the way, fun fact, when I first started making money as a sales rep, I'm like, Ooh, this money stuff's good. And my [00:19:30] buddy's like, Hey, you want to get season tickets to sharks?

Craig Rosenberg: I'm like, sure. I have no idea what's going on. By [00:19:35] the way, back then they used to make the playoffs nearest Stanley Cup every time, and I just go there and be like, [00:19:40] yeah, you know, I have no idea what's going on. Everyone's in their teal and I'm just like, [00:19:45] ah, it's crazy. Anyway, but then it was in San Jose and I lived in San Francisco, so it was a little tough, [00:19:50] but um, okay, cool.

Craig Rosenberg: That was great. David, good job. Look at that. He's [00:19:55] versatile. I throw, throw him for a loop. The guy comes in hot. Um, yeah, no, I I dude, [00:20:00] I totally agree with everything you just said. The, you know, the World Cup folks, it's not about [00:20:05] the, it's the unique experience. They can't do it themselves. And especially if you want to get [00:20:10] people that are jaded because they get lots of experiences offered to them.

Craig Rosenberg: And it's always the same [00:20:15] restaurant in town. There's like a couple restaurants in the city that. Everyone uses for their events. [00:20:20] It's like, you gotta love this place. If you're gonna go to another event there. I mean, Jesus, you [00:20:25] know. Um, but I'll give you one, you'll love this one, David. So, AJ Gandhi, who's like [00:20:30] a networker extraordinaire in our area.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, he's a really [00:20:35] good buddy. He's been on the show, he's brilliant. Go-To-Market guy too. But you know, he really spent [00:20:40] the last couple years. Trying to put on as many sort of [00:20:45] relevant networking events in his sphere of, uh, expertise was just Go-To-Market. [00:20:50] So, so he and I did one with him, so I'm trying to give him the credit, but [00:20:55] we did it together.

Craig Rosenberg: So he has this guy who does what's called Mika, which is [00:21:00] Omaze in a home. So [00:21:05] we did a CMO event. They're the perfect candidate for this, right? Like, uh. [00:21:10] Hom at AJ's house. Okay. The guy comes [00:21:15] in, he puts together a 20 course meal. Okay. [00:21:20] With saki pairings on each fricking dish. [00:21:25] Okay. And you do it in a house, which makes it even more personal and unique. [00:21:30] And you know, it's funny 'cause I, I mean like we filled the room with the CMOs and [00:21:35] like, I'm talking like legit, like, you know, Megan Isenberg comes walking. I mean, these were like [00:21:40] the, the superstars of of tech CM, oing. Like, I would [00:21:45] say 20% of them were like vegetarians. They didn't even eat fish, but it was so exciting that [00:21:50] they wanted to experience it.

Craig Rosenberg: I'm like, well what? What are you doing here by the way, it's great for me 'cause I didn't give a [00:21:55] shit. I starved myself for one day leading up to this. 'cause you know, I knew what this guy could [00:22:00] do, so they gave me theirs. And

Sam Guertin: Oh.

Craig Rosenberg: was great. Yeah. Yeah. So it was great. [00:22:05] It, it's not like these are big plates, it's like, you know, they're

David Politis: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: but like Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: Amazing. [00:22:10] So, anyway, it was a great experience and if anybody in the Bay Area wants the number of the guy who does it, he also does 'em on [00:22:15] yachts. That's like a, a famous

David Politis: Wow. Wow.

Craig Rosenberg: he calls it, but yeah, [00:22:20] he'll rent the yacht and they'll, they'll do it out there in this weather would probably be killer.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:22:25] Um,

Microsegmenting Your ICP
---

Craig Rosenberg: alright, so, um, David. Uh, tell [00:22:30] us like two to three things you're seeing working today from a Go-To-Market [00:22:35] perspective. Um, and we're looking forward to it. I'll probably interject along the [00:22:40] way, but, uh, last time you have one that's spent timeless, which you

David Politis: [00:22:45] Yeah.

Craig Rosenberg: ICP target market story, which I still send to people, that little clip.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:22:50] Um, what do you got for us now?

David Politis: Yeah, I mean, I think actually, um, I, I [00:22:55] really, I love the article that you wrote recently, um, about building [00:23:00] pipe in today's world and I, I really, the microsegmentation stuff that you talked [00:23:05] about there is what I am seeing working.

Craig Rosenberg: seeing.

David Politis: Like [00:23:10] time and time again. And I, I think that the, and the idea really is, [00:23:15] I've always really big on ICP, really big on that focus.

David Politis: Actually, that [00:23:20] has inspired me to go even tighter, like even tighter on that, you know, [00:23:25] the ICP, let's say it's. 1500 accounts. Getting that micro segment [00:23:30] down to 200 or 300 really has started to make a really [00:23:35] big difference. The outreach is so much more targeted. The every, so one cool thing [00:23:40] that, that I'm doing with one of my companies is they're basically doing these round tables.

David Politis: This is just, [00:23:45] you know, six people with the CEO, the founder round table of a [00:23:50] specific, you know, micro segment and basically getting them together. And talking [00:23:55] about, again, best practices in the industry in a confidential, you know, [00:24:00] we're, we're, we're not going to share any of this stuff. Chatham House rules and [00:24:05] then taking that information.

David Politis: So you get, let's call it five CIOs from [00:24:10] five banks. You know, ci, you know, and you get them together. You talk about what's [00:24:15] happening with AI in the banks and this and that. They share all that stuff. You take it, you package it [00:24:20] up, you pull out the, the, the lessons without attributing it to anyone. And then you take that, you [00:24:25] send it to the next set of those kind of CIOs at the banks that you want to get in front of, and you [00:24:30] say, Hey, our founder just did this thing with six CIOs from six banks.

David Politis: Holy sh [00:24:35] what was said was amazing. There's another one coming up in two weeks. I think I can get you a seat. [00:24:40] I gotta talk to him, but I think I can get you a seat. And here's some of the stuff that was said. [00:24:45] And what you're seeing is as you start to do enough of those, the, it's almost [00:24:50] addicting to the attendees because we all know, right?

David Politis: At some core level, [00:24:55] these people care about their jobs, truthfully more than they probably care about [00:25:00] their companies in, in some degree. Which is, which is fair. And so for them, if they can learn. [00:25:05] Oh man, that other bank is doing, and I can learn from them and I can learn from them. And at first I [00:25:10] thought, maybe this is gonna be competitive.

David Politis: Maybe it's, but it's not. It's not. They're actually very [00:25:15] open to share those things with each other and now they can take it back to the companies. [00:25:20] They look like celebrities. Bring back this crazy cool idea and then you can [00:25:25] use that. People who are not aware of this, meaning your SDR, your ae, whatever, [00:25:30] package it up for them.

David Politis: They can now use that in their outreach. The person reads it on LinkedIn is like, yes, I [00:25:35] can imagine why a bank, CIO would say that I'm a bank, CIOI wish I could be in that room. Oh, you're gonna [00:25:40] get me a seat in that room. It's, it's easy to do. It's pretty cheap, but it is that [00:25:45] microsegmentation that allows it to be effective.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, that was a [00:25:50] great story. I loved it and it is true. If you don't micro [00:25:55] segment that everyone thinks, well, if it's bigger, it's easier. It's actually not true. [00:26:00] 'cause now we know what we want to talk about. We know like, who, what should we talk about? What should [00:26:05] we offer? These things all become relevant.

Craig Rosenberg: Your expertise level goes through the roof, like what you just [00:26:10] described. I'm like, holy shit. Like, you know it. Even if they get no deals out of it, [00:26:15] they're coming out of that like a better company,

David Politis: Right, right.

Craig Rosenberg: you know? [00:26:20] And,

David Politis: a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point.

Craig Rosenberg: You know what you just reminded me [00:26:25] of too is like one of the things about micro segments, I actually saw this at Topo.[00:26:30]

Craig Rosenberg: People get really frustrated with salespeople. You know, [00:26:35] not being able to pivot to the hundred different variations of use cases or [00:26:40] features that they have. And actually, I used to tell 'em, like, and they, I, [00:26:45] they'd look at me like I was crazy, but I'd say, you know, why? Like, [00:26:50] why, why are we doing this? Like, can we accentuate what they're good at?

Craig Rosenberg: And if you [00:26:55] could give them a use case, they could beat the shit out of, or even up to three and they just beat the [00:27:00] crap out of 'em all day, they're gonna be better. And when you think about microsegmentation and [00:27:05] enablement, uh, I know it's a small part of what you, exactly what you just said is, [00:27:10] we know who we're going after.

Craig Rosenberg: We, we, we can target everything to them. One of [00:27:15] those is how we sell to them because it gets really hard, man. And like [00:27:20] that's, you know, when you talk to Boskovich it's like, you know, they segment, they know what demo to give. [00:27:25] Make the demo relevant to it. It's not a generic demo where I gotta go, be like, so tell me more [00:27:30] about what keeps you awake at night.

Craig Rosenberg: It's like you have a good guess going in, you have a good guess of what [00:27:35] like the, the collateral should look like or the content and you know, what a [00:27:40] trial, how it should be, like, what we should do to whatever your sales and the sales step in the sales process [00:27:45] is. It, it's just that much more relevant. But the, just the level of [00:27:50] expertise, the things that you can go talk about, um, is incredible.

Craig Rosenberg: And so, [00:27:55] yes, I agree with that. By the way, I would say on the microsegmentation thing, um. [00:28:00] The, uh, I too have seen this. It, it's, look, it's not [00:28:05] the anecdote to everything, but like you said, a lot of times guys like me and you can go in and [00:28:10] ev there's a whole bunch of broken stuff and we can step back and say, well, why don't we start at the top?[00:28:15]

Craig Rosenberg: When we do that and we start at the top, a lot of really good things happen. People think [00:28:20] we're crazy, but it's, it's right because, you know, there's so [00:28:25] many crazy stories. One of my favorites is, uh, Gainsight. They did customer [00:28:30] success, so churn was their business. They had a little bit of a churn problem early on.

Craig Rosenberg: They did [00:28:35] the analysis and they realized, oh my God, we can't keep this segment [00:28:40] right. By just making that ICP decision. They ended up, [00:28:45] they went so far with it. They gave those, they started to give [00:28:50] those, uh, customers in that segment away to their competitors. [00:28:55] Literally send 'em to 'em. They knew, and per your earlier story, they knew they'd come back.

Craig Rosenberg: But [00:29:00] like a lot of business problems are solvable by being really [00:29:05] clear-eyed about what your target ICP should be and then segmenting that into, [00:29:10] uh, microsegments that allow you to be as relevant and on point as

Craig Rosenberg: possible [00:29:15] per your though, the issue with all of this is that when you're a venture backed company. [00:29:20] And you're going to those board meetings. What you're hearing around the table is, [00:29:25] but we need fast, faster growth more, you know, this, that, and, and I understand why [00:29:30] the investors are saying, it's not like I'm just saying that's what you're hearing as the founder.

David Politis: So now you, [00:29:35] me, whoever tells them, let me tell you what you're gonna do. You actually take this big list and [00:29:40] make it very, very small. And now we're gonna focus on this very, very small list. And they're like, [00:29:45] I'm gonna get fired. I'm gonna get fired as CEO. Like if I do that, you know, [00:29:50] and I think that that is this dynamic where I, I sometimes I feel like I need to [00:29:55] have the conversation with the board members before I have the conversation with the CEO because they [00:30:00] almost need, you know, especially if you're a first time, if you're a first time CEO, you're really scared.

David Politis: I mean, this is [00:30:05] like a trust fall off the top of a building. You're like, you know, am I gonna really go do this right now? [00:30:10] You know? And, and anyway, I'm just hearing that to say like, I know it works, you know, it works. We can tell people [00:30:15] it works. The, the actual ability for them to stay strong on [00:30:20] this kind of approach is, is quite hard when you're showing up at board meetings and they're asking for [00:30:25] pipeline and they're asking you for this and you're, because it takes time to see this kind of impact the [00:30:30] business.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.

Matt Arrives
---

Craig Rosenberg: I will mention, well, first of all, everyone, Matt [00:30:35] Amundson

David Politis: Hey Matt.

Craig Rosenberg: it, um, based on his shirt. He might have been out at the [00:30:40] golf course.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, if I might, you look, I mean, honestly,[00:30:45]

Matt Amundson: I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Craig Rosenberg: um. Welcome. We [00:30:50] were just, he was on number one and we, we were talking about micro-segmentation, how the [00:30:55] keys to kingdom often lie in, you know, that part of the process. Um, [00:31:00] by the way, I will mention r Driscoll, our, you know, one of our, our top investor here, he [00:31:05] does, he has gone out in public and said, I need you to take a [00:31:10] slice and start with the

Craig Rosenberg: slice, and then we'll grow from there.

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, [00:31:15] yeah. I'll find, I'll dig it up. He's one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life.

David Politis: Oh yeah, I've, I've met him, [00:31:20] I've met him, turned me down a couple down a couple times. Did he? yeah, yeah. I mean, it was, he's, [00:31:25] he's really smart. He is really, He's really smart. Yeah. He knew better than to get in there with you. [00:31:30] All right. All right. I love it.

Craig Rosenberg: Um, Sam's going fishing after [00:31:35] this. Um,

Craig Rosenberg: Matt will be playing golf. I will be clearly taken

Matt Amundson: Yeah, he's going [00:31:40] fishing at a rugby match.

Craig Rosenberg: you know, they, they're, he's in.

Sam Guertin: gonna catch something.

Craig Rosenberg: He lives some, he lives [00:31:45] somewhere in Maine or something, and so he can go fishing while he is playing rugby. Um, all [00:31:50] right, so, uh, uh, what do you got? What's the next one, David?

Craig Rosenberg: Give us [00:31:55] another one.

David Politis: I mean, I think, you know, the other one that's always for me, uh, this is a, a [00:32:00] favorite for me is just the, the state of type of [00:32:05] surveys, you know, the, the deep research reports. I, I, [00:32:10] I am. That is something that AI [00:32:15] cannot do for you. Cannot do for you. And so when you actually go and build [00:32:20] one of these, and, and what this is, people will know, you know, it's like state of SaaS was what we used [00:32:25] to do at at at BetterCloud. We did it every year for 10 or 11 years and it's surveying. We would [00:32:30] survey thousands of people, we'd usually get about five to 800 responses, and [00:32:35] then we would cut up that data in a hundred different ways and present it back to that same [00:32:40] audience, plus the broader audience of the same persona.

David Politis: And that. That [00:32:45] single, the effort to do that. It's improved a little with ai, mostly [00:32:50] on the analysis side, but the truth is that it's still quite an a, a lift to come up with the [00:32:55] questions, the answers, making sure it makes sense, the list. How do you warm up that list there? It's a lot of [00:33:00] work. I would say the ROI in that is the highest ROI of [00:33:05] any campaign from a pure dollar perspective than I, than I have ever seen [00:33:10] because it is first party data that you now own. It is so much [00:33:15] data you can do. You can literally make your content for the year with that. [00:33:20] And it is, it is something that if you really dedicated to, you do year [00:33:25] over year over year and then. That's when, again, this is a long [00:33:30] investment, but by year five or six, you have crazy trend data. If you're asking this at [00:33:35] least some subset of the same questions At BetterCloud, we did this and we understood number of [00:33:40] SaaS applications in a company year over year, over year from [00:33:45] 2011 or 2012 until today, basically.

David Politis: And so you could see the trend data [00:33:50] of the SaaS apps going, going, and then 20 20, 21, right through the roof. And [00:33:55] you could see in 22, 23, the consolidation happening. But we had enough data to show [00:34:00] that. I have seen that graph. I, I've seen that in Cisco's, you know, [00:34:05] SKO, I've seen that in people's pitch decks for fundraising.

David Politis: I've seen that all over the [00:34:10] place over all these years because. It's, it's, it's data that is hard [00:34:15] to come by some other way and actually really relevant to the buyer IT [00:34:20] person in that case anyway. So I, I'm a big believer in that it is a big lift. [00:34:25] I talk to a lot of companies about it and probably 20 to 30% actually go through the effort [00:34:30] of, of doing it.

David Politis: But the ones that have it's, I mean.

Craig Rosenberg: I [00:34:35] mean,

David Politis: The, the ROI, I don't even know. There's so many kind of like trickle down effects of [00:34:40] that, that where you can use it. It's, it's amazing.

Craig Rosenberg: Matt, [00:34:45] um, what do you think of that? Welcome back. I'll give you, I will let you get, let you [00:34:50] jump in.

Matt Amundson: I mean, I [00:34:55] think it's, I mean, we, it's something that we've seen before, right? So like why [00:35:00] would we not see it again? Right. Like we, we get like this big, uh, [00:35:05] push for all these, you know, in the past, like SaaS apps, like, and then the [00:35:10] consolidation inevitably starts, right? Like at some point there's winners and some point there's, you know, there's, [00:35:15] there's more money to be made in the, in the consolidation piece and like that's a pattern that's gonna [00:35:20] happen again and again and again.

Matt Amundson: And it only makes wait, were you [00:35:25] reacting to the actual data that David was talking about or the idea that he was doing a state of [00:35:30] Yeah, I mean, by the way, on the data piece, David, uh, Jon Miller, we had him on [00:35:35] and, you know, he was talking about things that work and he was like, uh, data. But [00:35:40] especially if you can get the data from your product

David Politis: Right. That good [00:35:45] point. Yes. That should be included in in what I just said that that is a very That is a very good, [00:35:50] yeah, because that it gives you a unique content that's only yours, [00:35:55] but also if you could do it outta your product and say like, this is, you know, it's a great tie [00:36:00] in to to

David Politis: I love that. I, you know, I, I, yeah, and John knows that well, he knows [00:36:05] that that play well. I may have gotten that play from them. You know, I, you

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. [00:36:10] Well, Matt was there with him. Yeah. The, uh, Gong though is a great example. [00:36:15] You know, all their content came out of the, uh, the findings using Gong [00:36:20] very early on. Right? I mean, Orla made his,

Craig Rosenberg: his

Craig Rosenberg: his [00:36:25] name basically taking Gong data and writing about it. And like,

David Politis: [00:36:30] I mean, it's Carta, right? It's the Carta stuff.

Craig Rosenberg: Oh, Cartas like, yeah, I mean, [00:36:35] outrageous.

Craig Rosenberg: Like it, yeah, they actually, you're Carta's Carta is the probably the best at it. They're at an unfair [00:36:40] advantage on it, but that they're the best at it. But like, you know, you do want to set yourself up for [00:36:45] success with that, because, as you said, we're in a world now where if you do, if [00:36:50] everyone's doing their content using ai.

Craig Rosenberg: Or their idea is everyone's gonna have the same [00:36:55] content they already did. Now we're gonna magnify or amplify it. So like, where can you [00:37:00] be, uh, you know, unique in your own way? That, [00:37:05] and as you said, like it gives you, like if you go to a conference to [00:37:10] speak and you're David Politis from BetterCloud, and you have the data on like what's happening with SaaS [00:37:15] application, the proliferation of SaaS apps in the enterprise.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, then actually [00:37:20] the expectation is that they're gonna get something really valuable, especially as you said, if this is the 60 [00:37:25] of doing it. Um, if, if, yeah,

Craig Rosenberg: if you go ahead.

Matt Amundson: Well that, I [00:37:30] mean the, the thing that like I think about a lot is. Uh, [00:37:35] especially just like given, uh, where I'm at today is not just in [00:37:40] like the distribution of that externally, but the distribution of that internally. And [00:37:45] what I mean by that is like, I think it's kind of [00:37:50] high time we start thinking about other sources of the way we communicate with [00:37:55] our or with our customers than necessarily just like email. [00:38:00]

Craig Rosenberg: What I mean by that

Matt Amundson: And what I mean by that is like there's already sort of the infrastructure that exists as like [00:38:05] Intercom has gotten to the place that it's gone to. But like, I still think like more and [00:38:10] more of our customers want this communication in product because [00:38:15] of the timely nature of it. And like, I like, I'll give you a couple examples of it.

Matt Amundson: Like [00:38:20] let's say you're, you're a company that's maybe multi-product and you sell co [00:38:25] complimentary products. Like as you're pulling in insights that are like. [00:38:30] Hey, did you know like customers who do X, Y, and Z use this functionality are seeing [00:38:35] an average of these types of returns. Whatever it is, they're seeing this benefit.

Matt Amundson: But if [00:38:40] you can marry that to the product insights that you have of that business, [00:38:45] that's where I think the magic really happens. Like, Hey, you know, like let's say you're a [00:38:50] marketing automation platform and you're like, you know, you sent out 10,000 emails this month. [00:38:55] You're a great fit for our. You know, our email [00:39:00] trigger product, right?

Matt Amundson: Because what you really don't want to do is send out that many emails. What you [00:39:05] want to do is be able to filter down to the people that are actually doing something meaningful with the product, with the, [00:39:10] the emails that you're sending to them. So like, here's an opportunity for enhancement. And [00:39:15] I think that this, this is like the big disconnect that exists between product level [00:39:20] data.

Matt Amundson: Insights, uh, product level data to the customer, as well as the [00:39:25] insights that you're gleaning in mass across all of your customers. Like, we think about [00:39:30] it as marketers, as like, oh, this is great. I'm gonna put this in a webinar. I'm gonna put this in an [00:39:35] ebook. I'm gonna, you know, send out. Uh, a one pager on this to all my [00:39:40] customers, but like if you can actually attach the value of that complimentary [00:39:45] product to something that you can understand about that customer's day to day [00:39:50] and be like, Hey, like you've gotta go action this.

Matt Amundson: Did you know if you had this product you could [00:39:55] action it faster or more efficiently or to serve like some sort of. [00:40:00] Uh, to, to, to grow some metric that that matters to that business. That's the piece [00:40:05] where I think that there's still an opportunity for real magic, and it's not something that people are [00:40:10] talking about, and I know it's like a little nuanced, but that to me is like the next [00:40:15] real frontier is communicating through to that benefit to our customers as [00:40:20] that issue is coming up, uh, in their immediate needs on a day-to-day basis. [00:40:25]

Craig Rosenberg: better. The earlier one, a little weird. [00:40:30] This one That

Craig Rosenberg: was potent. That was great.

David Politis: I'm gonna, I'm

Matt Amundson: I'm getting my

David Politis: [00:40:35] I'm gonna tie

Craig Rosenberg: Going to,

David Politis: before I was talking Matt

David Politis: before about, I'm gonna [00:40:40] tie it. Yep. I, I was talking to Craig about this, this, this company I saw that built [00:40:45] this microsite basically with Claude skills, and it was for their target customer, [00:40:50] their, their persona.

David Politis: And it was essentially a way to get ahead of like, Hey, you want to build it yourself? [00:40:55] Cool. We'll even give you the skills to do that. But I like what Matt said. You could take the [00:41:00] survey information, the product information, understanding all that, build that into the Claude skills. Now tell [00:41:05] everyone these Claude skills already have the best practices built into them because we see it across [00:41:10] all of these things.

David Politis: You tie all of that together. That's, that's [00:41:15] it. That's it. I need like a company to do it with. I'm gonna call one of my companies after this and try [00:41:20]

Craig Rosenberg: Let's do it. See, Matt. Matt, you're gonna end up with

Craig Rosenberg: a use case on yours [00:41:25] momentarily. Once David's

Craig Rosenberg: done,

Matt Amundson: man.

Craig Rosenberg: you go look at this, [00:41:30] I'm like in a meeting earlier today and I'm like, where's my wedding ring? [00:41:35] So now I've lost, I've lost weight, right? So like, [00:41:40] I don't know where I lost it. It fell off.

Craig Rosenberg: And by the way, I have not [00:41:45] taken that thing off since 2005. Yeah, [00:41:50] I am so

David Politis: your wife or.

Craig Rosenberg: Not yet, man. I wouldn't be on this call. The [00:41:55] web, uh, podcast canceled man. And by the way, it's Friday [00:42:00] when we're recording this. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, the transaction audience. I'm about to go on the [00:42:05] weekend having to figure out the best time to let my wife know that my wedding band [00:42:10] is gone

Craig Rosenberg: and missing.

Craig Rosenberg: Uh, I mean, in all fairness, I mean, in all fairness, [00:42:15] like this is probably the 17th wedding band I have, and At this point, I've gone to just like the rubber [00:42:20] one.

Craig Rosenberg: really, what a

Craig Rosenberg: great call. I, uh, yeah, I did [00:42:25] some, I was doing some research using the horizontal AI platforms to find cool

Craig Rosenberg: [00:42:30] wedding rings.

Craig Rosenberg: I'm not sure man.

Matt Amundson: Do you mean

Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. Well, I may, [00:42:35] may, I may have to. I mean, I found this one [00:42:40] side, I'm like, is this like target audience uFC fighters and their fans?

Craig Rosenberg: I [00:42:45] mean, these are like the, the wedding rings were

Craig Rosenberg: like, what the fuck? like, what was the Ed Hardy? What was the [00:42:50] old

Matt Amundson: Yeah. That's where

David Politis: Hey Craig. We know that well. We know that

David Politis: Well. [00:42:55] We know the

David Politis: UFC crowds well,

Matt Amundson: You,

Matt Amundson: yeah. You wanna wear a [00:43:00] wedding ring and punch someone in the face. We've got a product for

Craig Rosenberg: Me and David went to the [00:43:05] UFC fight at the, uh, Georgia Dome

Craig Rosenberg: or where the old one.

Craig Rosenberg: And, uh, [00:43:10] it was an experience. It was him and me we're just hanging out as buddies. And like [00:43:15] it started in line when this, the man behind us goes, Hey man, you look [00:43:20] grumpy. And I, I was sober at the time, which did hurt. And then he's [00:43:25] like, here, maybe this will help you. And he pulls his wife's

Craig Rosenberg: shirt down. [00:43:30] And

Craig Rosenberg: by the way, that didn't help because me and David were so [00:43:35] uncomfortable.

Craig Rosenberg: We were

David Politis: In line, In line, in line, like with like a long line of [00:43:40] people like. It was the most, that was the beginning. That was just the Yeah, that was [00:43:45] just the, beginning. Yeah. The guy spilled beer on us. We weren't sure if we had to, you know, start [00:43:50] throwing hate makers or whatever. The, and by the way, it was Chuck Liddell, Rashard Evans. [00:43:55] That was a two second fight because Liddell walked out. Evans freaking [00:44:00] does this kick to the head and knocks him out.

Craig Rosenberg: And it was like, oh. Like, everyone's like, [00:44:05] yeah, yeah. You know, you're going craz. And they, oh, that's it. Yeah. Okay.

Craig Rosenberg: Last one. All right, everyone go [00:44:10] home. Yeah, it was crazy. Fun fact, I watched that fight [00:44:15] inside of a seven

Craig Rosenberg: What Fernando?

Matt Amundson: the San Fernando Valley.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:44:20] Matt. Matt. '

Matt Amundson: Just cause I was like popping in to, to grab like a Diet Coke or [00:44:25] something and the fight was on and the guy was like, eh, I've got the fight. And it was over

Craig Rosenberg: 30 seconds. Yeah. So you [00:44:30] got home on time, by the way. Thank you. Although buying yourself a Diet Coke at the thing, I was thinking [00:44:35] like you were helping me and David, I gave such an inappropriate story that you're like, yeah, so I'm at the [00:44:40] seven 11, I buy a 40. I'm like, could you put a paper bag on that? And then I'm like, Hey man, let's watch the fight.

Craig Rosenberg: Do [00:44:45] you have any Swisher, Sweetss and a pack of Winston? One hundreds unfiltered. 'cause let's just [00:44:50] make this

Matt Amundson: Yeah, yeah, let me get, a side of horny goat weed with that

Matt Amundson: too, by the way.

Sam Guertin: picking up a [00:44:55]

Craig Rosenberg: Oh shit. Yeah, man. I love it. All right. All right, David, let's get back to business [00:45:00] two. Those are two great ones. Uh, any any other thoughts on things you're [00:45:05] seeing work really well with the,

David Politis: I think, I mean the other,

GTM Engineer Role
---

David Politis: the other thing that's, that's happening, which I think we all [00:45:10] know about is the, the whole Go-To-Market engineer concept, you know, which I think everyone [00:45:15] knows about is talking about, but it's been interesting for me to see kind of this [00:45:20] evolution from, you know, Go-To-Market engineer was something obviously Clay created as like a, [00:45:25] as a, as a role or whatever and, and really championed, let's say. And I think [00:45:30] that, um, obviously Clay is still a product many people use, but I think it's more just become [00:45:35] this mindset now. You know, I talk to CEOs, people, I don't even like first time meeting them and they're like, [00:45:40] should I get to Go-To-Market engineer?

David Politis: All the other CEOs are telling me they're gonna Go-To-Market engineers. And, and I've started [00:45:45] to see some of these. AI first young to be, you know, young [00:45:50] AI first people coming into these companies and just blowing people's minds. I [00:45:55] mean, coming in and just, it, it's amazing how much impact someone [00:46:00] who doesn't know, like is so naive to like what should be possible.

David Politis: And in a week they're building [00:46:05] stuff that. They've been trying to build up the company for months, years, literally, you know, how to, how [00:46:10] to do the microsegmentation, how to go get that data, how to customize their decks, how to do this [00:46:15] all, like the machinery around all of this stuff is, it is ama for me.

David Politis: It's amazing. I mean, [00:46:20] I, I, I see it. I'm like, wow, one person making a hundred grand, 120 grand [00:46:25] is literally like having. You know, 20 people or something on [00:46:30] like a, on a rev ops team slash marketing ops plus plus, you know, and you get it all in [00:46:35] one person and they really can do the work. Uh, that particular role, I feel like [00:46:40] is the, that from a role perspective, highest ROI role, I have seen in [00:46:45] maybe in my career from like a demand growth perspective.

David Politis: One person [00:46:50] in that seat who's killer highest ROI, I've seen of a HU single [00:46:55] person.

Craig Rosenberg: Wow. Both. I like it.

David Politis: If they're [00:47:00] great. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more. I mean, I am, I'm in an [00:47:05] organization now that has one and, uh. Uh, the [00:47:10] innovation that he's bringing to the, to the group that he's working in is just wild. I mean, it's just [00:47:15] the, the pace that he's moving at is like Lightspeed compared to, to where we've been in the past.

Matt Amundson: Right. [00:47:20] And, um, and like, I, I think that these [00:47:25] are, like, people are talking about it for sure, Matt? The streets is talking. yeah, yeah, the [00:47:30] streets are

Matt Amundson: talking. Uh, but like, this

Craig Rosenberg: you use proper English, so [00:47:35] that was good. My bad. Yeah, no, it's okay

Matt Amundson: My bad, the streets is talking and [00:47:40] uh,

Craig Rosenberg: and I think that like,

Matt Amundson: and I think that like, you know, we're, we're, we are not far [00:47:45] off from being this, just being like the standard role that's in most organizations.[00:47:50]

Matt Amundson: I think, uh, it's, it's really become that like sort of art of the possible [00:47:55] and I think for a lot of. For a lot of GTM teams, they've pushed, you [00:48:00] know, no one's perfect, but they've pushed the bounds of like kind of the old playbook as far as it can [00:48:05] go. And I, I think the value of the GTM engineer is, they really think outside of that [00:48:10] box in terms of what is possible.

Matt Amundson: And it's like, yeah, if a, you [00:48:15] know, if we could only do this, and they're like, yeah, of course we can do that. Of course we can do that. But [00:48:20] it's outside of the scope of what CRM is capable of out of the box. It's outside of the [00:48:25] scope of what a marketing automation or a sales engagement platform is capable out of the box, [00:48:30] and That's why it requires that specialization.

David Politis: I, I feel like it's the early days [00:48:35] of Marketo Craig, when you first introduced me to Marketo, you know, in those early days [00:48:40] pre-series A and when they started to get some traction in Pardot and all the eloquent, all those [00:48:45] tools. And when I hired my first de, I remember, I remember you and I talking about this, me hiring my [00:48:50] first dedicated person to run that tool.

David Politis: And I remember [00:48:55] having conversations and we were like, whoa. We can do what? And we're [00:49:00] stringing together these things in Marketo and like if they click this and then do this, and then, [00:49:05] and it's like you can do that. You can trigger based on that. I remember those days. Right? And it [00:49:10] was that kind of thing where that was our competitive advantage.

David Politis: Uh, in those early days, [00:49:15] having that kind of a person, that kind of a product, that kind of a you, you could [00:49:20] do stuff that before was. Literally unheard. I mean, you, you couldn't imagine doing it. [00:49:25] This feels very similar to me, where it feels like you get a good person in this role [00:49:30] and what they're able to do is just, is just to what Matt said, [00:49:35] something you just couldn't even comprehend a couple of years ago.

Craig Rosenberg: [00:49:40] Yeah, that's, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm tracking. [00:49:45] Um, I, uh, let me give you this. We, we did a. You know, last year we did [00:49:50] some go-to-market AI research. So granted it was last year, but like we [00:49:55] looked at the go-to-market engineer and um, the data was [00:50:00] 51% have hired or considering hiring a go-to-market engineer.

Craig Rosenberg: This was last year, [00:50:05] so it's different now, but more importantly, those [00:50:10] that were in that cohort were 30% more likely to see a big [00:50:15] impact from ai.

David Politis: Hmm.

Craig Rosenberg: Because one of the rea, one of the things that's really [00:50:20] important there, so like Matt, you know, like for example, last year at his old CMO job, [00:50:25] like he was like, uh, we had. I think we were either preparing for [00:50:30] an event and, and, uh, Matt's very competitive, right? He's a division one football [00:50:35] player and a football, you know, like, he's like, he saw that all the AI shit that people were doing, he's [00:50:40] like, in one weekend, dude, the guy stood up all this shit in his marketing department [00:50:45] using ai.

Craig Rosenberg: Now people can't do that. Like the leaders can't do that. [00:50:50] But actually the. You need the, the Go-To-Market engineer [00:50:55] because the game changes every day. So it's not just the fact that the, [00:51:00] so all the things you guys said, and because someone will come to you guys when you bring that up and they'll [00:51:05] say, well, you know, our leaders are really into AI and they've put together their own agents.

Craig Rosenberg: That's great. By [00:51:10] the way. Everyone should, should, uh, applaud that. The issue is, is [00:51:15] one day later. The game has changed. It's like, you know, like Claude [00:51:20] eats a new enterprise software product every week, right? And [00:51:25] so, and, and you have to keep learning it, right? And so that's why you [00:51:30] need these folks that are dedicated to it.

Craig Rosenberg: So like, you know, Neil hired my niece, right? And Neil [00:51:35] Harrington, he's like one of the better. AI guys we know, right? And, um, he's built so [00:51:40] much stuff there, but he brought in a, um, you know, a, a Go-To-Market [00:51:45] engineer because guess what? It's the game's changing. You have to stay. And she's bringing [00:51:50] new things to the table.

Craig Rosenberg: She's doing things. And when you guys said, I don't know who it was, [00:51:55] David or David and Matt, but like that other set of eyes, I'm really [00:52:00] intrigued by this. When you bring it, it's not about, you know, it, we hate to bring up ageism, but they're [00:52:05] typically young folks that. Are really ambitious because we want them to be like, well, [00:52:10] why can't we do it? Because that, that's, you know, that is the cool thing [00:52:15] about the Go-To-Market. And depending on how you hire it, you know, it's like you want someone who's [00:52:20] like, let's break some shit. And, um, and, and then, you know, you [00:52:25] still have, you still have to have leadership in place, like a Matt who's going to. Look at it and be the [00:52:30] ultimate arbiter of whether we do it or not, or of taste or whatever you gotta do.

Craig Rosenberg: But you, [00:52:35] we need that because that is literally what's happening right now. These companies that are, [00:52:40] uh, just rocking and rolling, they're breaking shit More, more, more important than having [00:52:45] the, the, the mat to say, Hey, will, will we do it or not? I think it's having the mat [00:52:50] to say, Hey, you have the freedom.

Craig Rosenberg: you have freedom.

David Politis: To go and [00:52:55] try like, you know what I mean? Versus here's what we need you to do. It's a, it's actually, [00:53:00] here's our, here's our ICP go like. Yeah. [00:53:05] Do you know what I mean?

David Politis: Like, I think that's where I'm seeing this, the, the really special stuff happen is [00:53:10] where the CEOs, the CMOs are like, look, we hired you, we're telling you where we're trying to [00:53:15] get to, but let's see what you can do. And then the best people are, oh yeah, let me, [00:53:20] let me go wild. You know, all weekend they're doing and they come back on Monday and it's.

David Politis: You know, [00:53:25] they've got something there. So I think, I think it's both of those things. It's supporting the person up front to [00:53:30] let them go wild. And then it's actually putting that into the, into the machinery once it's ready [00:53:35] to test.

Craig Rosenberg: I love it. Alright, well [00:53:40] Matt, thanks for coming in, man. You got in there, you got 30 minutes of convo, so [00:53:45] that works out. Yeah, You know what's great about doing? Wait, [00:53:50] react. Yeah, he totally agrees with me on that. His reaction. Yeah. So the, uh, [00:53:55] the, the afternoon, Friday afternoon, being able to have some fun talking, uh, [00:54:00] uh, Go-To-Market is awesome, especially with you, David.

Craig Rosenberg: Thanks. Thanks man for coming on and, [00:54:05] uh, we'll, uh. You're in, you're in like a long second [00:54:10] place with the other, the, the five other multi episode folks. So [00:54:15] we get you to three, you'll

Craig Rosenberg: be in second behind Albro, so we'll I'm coming. I'm coming. for Scott. I'm [00:54:20] coming for

David Politis: Scott.

Matt Amundson: get a jacket.

Craig Rosenberg: episodes. You get a jacket. Actually, if Matt [00:54:25] designs it, you could be in good shape because he's, he's good at that kind of stuff. So, um, [00:54:30] alright guys, well everyone have a great weekend and uh, David. Thanks again

David Politis: Yeah. Talk soon

Craig Rosenberg: [00:54:35] it's always a pleasure. Thanks buddy.

David Politis: later guys.

Thanks for joining [00:54:40] us for another episode of the Transaction, Craig, and I really appreciate the fact that you've listened all the [00:54:45] way to the end. What are you actually doing here? For show notes and other episodes, please visit [00:54:50] us@thetransactionpod.com, like and subscribe on Spotify, apple Podcast [00:54:55] or any other place you get your podcast from.[00:55:00]

Either you have walked away from your podcast device. Or this [00:55:05] is playing somewhere in the background. Someone in your house would really like for you to shut this off [00:55:10] [00:55:15] [00:55:20] now.