The Transaction

TT - 038 - Justin Gray - Full Episode
Justin Gray: [00:00:00] So many people are afraid to make mistakes but like, you're never taking any risks.
You're never going outside the box, lo and behold, things aren't working anymore.
We had to find gaps that either were not prevalent or that no one else was doing and say, if we really want to succeed in this space we can't be beating our heads against the wall of what folks are already doing.
We have to find new areas to innovate.
Craig Rosenberg: Yes. There we go.
Matt Amundson: Cozy corncob pipe sweatshirt sweater.
Justin Gray: Oh, he actually changed. Oh,
Craig Rosenberg: No, dude. That's he's honoring me for getting him a gift.
Justin Gray: What
Matt Amundson: got me this great gift. I got Craig an alarm clock,
Justin Gray: Is it hoodie or something?
Matt Amundson: yeah, it's an essentials hoodie. And it's just,
Justin Gray: Essentials. Oh,
Matt Amundson: made out of like a sweater material, but it's
Justin Gray: You can tell it's in Essential City because it says Essentials across the chest really
Matt Amundson: That's correct. That's
Craig Rosenberg: brand. That's Justin. Write that down as an example of great branding. [00:01:00] I think I've been complimenting you in your intros forever.
It was like, I remember, but,
but,
and then I always,
Justin Gray: intros? Or
Craig Rosenberg: one sec. I always, I always, yeah, hi everyone at this party. Uh, this is Justin, stop everyone, clink, clink, clink. This is Justin, yes, um, no, but um, but yeah, the way we actually met was because I had a, website back in the day called Focus, which was like a Quora for B2B.
And there was one guy who was breaking all the, uh, content rules and it was Justin. What was the name of that old company?
Justin Gray: Mass Impact. M A A S.
Speaker 3: that's
Craig Rosenberg: [00:02:00] right.
Matt Amundson: Based in
Craig Rosenberg: So anyway, I called Seland or like either Chris Seland or, or someone. And I'm
like, Hey
dude,
like,
Speaker 3: I'm
Craig Rosenberg: like, can you tell that guy to chill? He's like, yeah, no problem. I got it. Uh, and then we got to know each other, and then LeadMD was, and Matt always agrees with me on this, that was like, an epically run.
Frickin
Justin Gray: you.
Craig Rosenberg: third party, I mean,
Justin Gray: So, yeah, EliteMD was the evolution for Mass Impact.
Speaker 2: Mass Impact.
Justin Gray: You know, for the history buffs out there. Uh, we started off selling Marketo, white labeling Marketo. Which, the funny story is, we actually like truly white labeled Marketo. Like, they had like seven servers dedicated to us. And if you logged into Marketo, it said our terrible logo that I created in like PowerPoint back in the day.
Um, Mass Impact, right? Um, and then, so we had software and services. We had a couple of it together, like a
Speaker 2: full,
Justin Gray: Um, you know, managed service offering and, um, not a good idea to try to go up against a, like, [00:03:00] well funded, venture backed, uh, company and try to, like, you know, compete. No, that's not, that's not their tech.
It's our tech. Uh, so the, the technology resale quickly fell away and, and that's, you know, the birth story of LeadMD.
Craig Rosenberg: did you run into them? Like, I, how would the, the relationship guide, you were trying to, uh, I'm, sorry, I just,
Justin Gray: I bought Marketo. I'm, like, Marketo's, like, sixth customer.
Craig Rosenberg: uh,
Justin Gray: Bill Binch had just joined. Some gal named Margaret Hoogerbeets was my sales rep
and I was bought market.
I rolled it out at an organization. And, um, I was like, God, this is like great, but like, you gotta be like, there's no training, like there was like this one dude ran, like if you bought in like a two week, you know, cycle, you got thrown into like this group training and you got like literally two or three 30 minute calls and then they're like, all right, go do it.
Um, and so [00:04:00] when I sold my piece of that company, it's the first like startup I ever worked for and, and, you know, had taken sweat equity and so on. I was like, man, that seems like a really good business. Like, I think this software is going to take off, but like, no one knows how to run it. Like, we were like jankily skating by.
Um, and so that's how the idea for LeadMD came about. But yeah, like the negotiation there with like Amy Guerino, which, you know, rest in peace. Um, great, awesome woman. There would not be a LeadMD without
Craig Rosenberg: yes,
Justin Gray: Um, But, like, her and Phil Fernandez, like, me convincing them to, like, white label that software was, you know, an epic sales story in and of itself.
But, like, yeah, we literally wrote the contract. Everyone says, oh, back of a napkin. Uh, we wrote that contract on the back of a napkin at the Scottsdale Princess, uh, when she was out. And, you know, she gave a bunch of yahoos, uh, the keys to the, uh, the kingdom over there. And then, obviously, [00:05:00] the services offering kind of, um Um, you know, uh, monopolized everything else, but, um, just really super early days.
Marketo. This was in 2000. Well, I bought it in 2006 and then LeadMD formed in, uh, 2009.
Matt Amundson: Wow.
Craig Rosenberg: That's amazing.
Matt Amundson: Yeah. I mean, the way I always just, uh, the way I always describe Lead MD is like really, uh, you know, one of the most important voices, uh, in MarTech during that stretch, right? Like really sort of set the
Craig Rosenberg: Wow, look at
Matt Amundson: way.
Speaker 4: the way.
Justin Gray: Yeah. That,
Craig Rosenberg: You dude, we were like right here, and then you went
like this
Justin Gray: Matt, Matt elevated that entire
Matt Amundson: that is not hyperbole. That's just a straight up fact. I mean, it was almost impossible to separate anything that was happening in that space from what you guys were doing. And
Justin Gray: here's the funny thing, Matt, not to interrupt all your praise, But like, I'm literally having a conversation like three weeks ago and like a founder very, you know, young founder is [00:06:00] arguing with me on what? Rev ops is . And I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna pull that out. Like, but I agree. Like we were very active in defining what is now marketing ops and, and not rev ops.
Um, so like very gracefully like. Okay, like let's let's level set here and so on but it's just so funny because you get I mean this kid's 28 He has no context or idea of you know, what where the space came from, but it was definitely the Wild West
Matt Amundson: Yeah. Yeah. But it's not an accident that a lot of, uh, some of the, or I should say, some of the most successful people coming from Marketo actually went out and built companies that were very similar. Uh, to yours, right? They saw the value. They understood not just, you know, what you guys were bringing to the market in terms of thought leadership, but actually the value that your customers were getting.
Uh, and so there's been a lot of businesses that have started. They're very, very similar, uh, and have been very successful. And, uh, and I think that's [00:07:00] because, you know, for, for, for, for many of us, and I'm not one of those people, but for many of us on the inside of Marketo, we watched the work that you guys did.
Um, Specifically with customers and we're always blown away. And you know, we used to talk about you guys internally. It's like, Hey, we got to get them connected with Justin. We got to get them connected, connected with Josh. Like this is how we get our customers to be super successful and, and grow their usage of the product.
So,
Justin Gray: mean that's awesome because I mean like when we think about customers like you guys were our Primary customer, you know what I mean? and so like That kind of one to many sale, which, you know, we can get in. I won't completely plug the book the entire time I'm on here, but you know, that, that, that is the fundamental of, uh, of what we put together in terms of.
You know, that give to get mentality and just, you know, Hey, how do I provide hyper value to you? So that, you know, we build trust and, and obviously you introduced me to what is ultimately my end user and so on. But I will say when we sold, we had an [00:08:00] NPS and this is like a true NPS of 87. It's probably like the metric that I'm most proud of for a services business.
Uh, I mean, it blows me away and that, that, that's just totally indicative of the people that we had working there, quite
Matt Amundson: yeah.
Speaker 3: yeah. Yeah. Gee,
Craig Rosenberg: This is the longest intro we've ever done. It's
Justin Gray: We may not even get to a podcast today.
Matt Amundson: Yeah. Well, it's a Friday show. Friday shows go off the rails. I love it.
Speaker 4: I love it.
Craig Rosenberg: But anyway, Justin's always been, like Matt, one of my trusted guys. Like I, I, you know, when I'm thinking of things or trying to answer questions in my head, he's one of the guys I call. And, um, and so he, so LeadMD gets acquired. Justin and Josh Go and
Justin Gray: who ran enterprise
Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.
Justin Gray: for
Craig Rosenberg: I
Justin Gray: a decade.
Craig Rosenberg: Josh, just so you know, I wasn't struggling with your last name there.
I did not need Justin to bail me out, but I did delay because I was trying to think of what I was going [00:09:00] to sit next. Matt, do you think I was delaying? Okay. No, he laughed. All right. So and then, uh, and that you guys have a pretty cool model there. You know, the funny thing was when you were starting it and you're like, look, we're gonna, uh, invest early, but we're not just going to invest.
We're going to go in there and help them build their go to market structure.
Justin Gray: going to work for free. This is
Craig Rosenberg: yeah, exactly. Here, here, take our money. We're going to pay you to let us work
Justin Gray: Exactly.
Craig Rosenberg: Uh, but
Justin Gray: I would create a business with that model.
Craig Rosenberg: yeah, but even dude, if you think about like these models that are not sort of simple products and you guys had sort of, once again, sort of thought through the, the way you want to approach the market in a different way than everyone else.
I think that's the same as lead MD. It is part of your personality because you, I think one of the reasons you're successful is you're so cynical and contrarian. No, because otherwise, if you believe the hype, I always felt like the best consultants created the hype because you have to on content [00:10:00] that gets people there.
But to ensure success, you don't believe the hype. Like, there's some really fundamentally, fundamental wood chopping that has to happen for you to be successful. And, uh, you were always really realistic about that. That's what makes you so good. Okay, before we go, let's just lay it out there. You started on your book.
Just give us the full lowdown on the book and then, um, and then we'll move on.
Justin Gray: Yeah, I mean the full lowdown in the book is Fundamentally, yeah, I mean you guys talk to a lot of people. What's working right now? Like what's working in b2b and like normally you just get like a long pause there and then you get like some You know piece together Garbage quite frankly like fundamentally what's working is what has all like that has always worked which is Trusted relationships like where do you go for information?
That is not ubiquitous Matt and I were talking about Kind of in the green room area on, like, if you're creating content these [00:11:00] days, well, everything is out there. You know what I mean? Like the, these, Oh, I'm going to give you insight into a regulation change or, you know, uh, best practice or whatever. Like you can Google that crap and with, you know, AI, like get a super insightful summary and, and, and that has more trust than what's coming from a vendor these days.
And so, like, I think that's the fundamental challenge that we're all up against, which is, you know, the, the, the voice that was so unique, uh, called content creation that we could just go out and do a decade ago. And it was, wow, I can't believe they're giving this stuff away for free. Like that, I think that ship has sailed.
Like the only thing that, that people are looking for these days is insights that they can't find anywhere else, like proprietary content. Insights. But even to earn the right to serve that up, you have to break through that barrier. And, and, you know, I fundamentally believe that, like, relationships and, you know, trusted intros, like, you know, Craig, [00:12:00] you saying, hey, go talk to this guy.
He knows what he's talking about.
Speaker 2: You
Justin Gray: can't do that with a paid marketing campaign. You can't do that with, you know, vomiting and interrupting people and trying to say, look at me. The only way to gain that access is to earn that access. through trust and, and, and leverage that relationship as a, as a door opener.
And then to your point earlier, like you have to pay that off with hyper value, like people looking to be surprised or looking to be pleasantly wowed. Um, and you have to be able to fulfill on that. But in order to gain that access, you know, relationships is, is the door opener. I think that's why you see so much, uh, just gravity towards partnership and partner ecosystems and so on.
But. Part for the course, like we're screwing it up again. Like we're distilling everything down into what can be Playbooked or like what is the motion that I go through and how soon am I gonna see ROI on this and so on like To truly like embrace a partnership [00:13:00] mentality Which I would sum up as give to get meaning I'm gonna give you value until you're just so You You know, you're, you recognize that value is always going to be there.
You trust it and you're willing to open up your Rolodex, your, your trusted relationships to me. Um, you know, that, that, that is what needs to happen there. And I just think there's, there's not enough examples of that happening practically, tactically, day to day. And so that's why we wrote the book because you know, that's what I, how I built every business is the only way I know how to build businesses.
I start off as quite frankly, the perpetual underdog. room I walk into. I'm not going to have the cache of someone that went to XYZ school or is an XYZ group or, you know, VC for, you know, 15 years and, and, you know, is in Stripe or, or Facebook or whatever. Um, and so you have to earn that through, you know, what we spell out in the book, which is, you know, it's called the, the go to market cheat code.
It's really the life cheat code [00:14:00] if you ask me, but, um, it's a collection of real world examples, stories, Uh, uh, you know, enough of a roadmap, but at the end of the day, like, it's the creativity that you bring to it. So we're trying to provide some good foundational examples, and then you've got to extend that into your own world.
Matt Amundson: Love it. Love it. When when does the book come out?
Justin Gray: The 15th of January, so what date is it that we're recording this, the 3rd? Um, so yeah, 15th, it actually hits, uh, the streets, but you can pre order it now. Search the Go To Market Cheat Code on Amazon. Go to our website in revenue. com or capital. They both work. Um, and go under insights, click on, you know, I think it says book the Go To Market Cheat Code.
Uh, click on that. There's many ways to buy it there. Pre order it. It really, really helps us out. Uh, but fundamentally, like, This is, you know, the blueprint of how I built and sold [00:15:00] five different businesses and, and also what we're bringing to our, our portfolio and in revenue.
Matt Amundson: Awesome
Sam Guertin: as Craig would love, uh, you can actually go to the show notes right now and, uh, there will be a code right there, uh, a link right there.
Craig Rosenberg: Dude, there was Sam coming out of nowhere.
Justin Gray: Boom.
Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. By the way, show notes. We haven't talked about show notes in a while. That was also just, that was amazing. Um,
Matt Amundson: and we're coming and we're coming straight out in a hardcover. I'm loving this
Speaker 4: this.
Justin Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Audiobook will be available about 30 days after the 15th of February. Everyone asked me about that. And then, you know, all that crap is up to Wiley. We're, you know, we chose to traditionally publish it. Um, just cause I wanted to, uh, I wanted to say that we'd done it one time. I don't know if we would do it again if I do a follow up, but um, hardcover's available the 15th.
Please pick it up. All pre orders collapse into week one. We're trying to turn this into a bestseller, so pre orders really [00:16:00] matter.
Craig Rosenberg: Okay.
Matt Amundson: Well, boom! Uh, wait, which way do I go? That way. Boom.
Justin Gray: There it is right there.
Matt Amundson: Pre order
placed.
Craig Rosenberg: Hey, so Justin, um, what's the best, you know, we've been basically, this is what we like to call the Matt Transaction 2.
1 Feature Enhancement, which is we just, and you said stories, you said stories, we've just been asking guests, like, give us like the best story you got on a go to market story and we're leaving it pretty open. Can it be. It can be funny or heroic or you know, whatever just sort of or You know in this case since you have a bunch of stories in the book could be something that just Exemplifies what you're trying to get
Justin Gray: Well, I'll try and do something that's not in the book.
Craig Rosenberg: Oh, there you go.
Justin Gray: Just, you know, a little
Craig Rosenberg: Oh, bam. And by the way before you go, are you in your like?
Dad's
lawyer's office. I
Justin Gray: I knew it
Craig Rosenberg: the fuck jesus christ That is
Justin Gray: If you could only see what's on the wall that [00:17:00] I'm looking at, but it's not appropriate for a family show. I am in my office, my home office.
Craig Rosenberg: You got, did you get suckered into the encyclopedia sales guy when he
Justin Gray: That is my wife's encyclopedias that she refuses to get rid of. There are actual other books. Oh my god, I just knocked everything over. Um, hold on, everything is falling apart.
there are actual books in this office. But she makes me keep these encyclopedias. I try to get rid of them all. In fact, one time I tried to throw them away. And I like tucked it under a bunch of stuff. And she's like, what is that? And I'm like, ugh. She refused to get rid of them. She's like, our kids are going to use them.
I was like, our kids are already Googling stuff. They're five and seven and they're Googling stuff. Like it's not going to happen.
Craig Rosenberg: That's amazing.
Matt Amundson: I did want to ask if those books were purely decorative, but that's a
Justin Gray: They are actual real books. you know.
you, you
Sam Guertin: oh. It's not just a plastic insert.
Matt Amundson: Yeah. [00:18:00] Prove it. Prove it. There we go.
Speaker 4: a lot of interesting
Justin Gray: Yeah. I've got a lot of interesting crap in my office, but I try to keep the benign stuff in the, in the background for podcasts.
Craig Rosenberg: Love it. Um, all right. So give us, give us one, give us a great, uh, story.
Justin Gray: story?
Craig Rosenberg: Well, it's a good, you know, it's a go to market
Justin Gray: Go to market
Craig Rosenberg: we, we did have Brett Adamson on. He talked about, um, maggots on a plane incident that he had, which was epic. So if you want one of those, you can. It's, it's going to be tough to top the maggots on the plane.
Matt Amundson: Justin was such a road dog back in the day. Like, I
Craig Rosenberg: dude, I'd call him all the time. He's like, Craig, I'm taking off right now. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Matt Amundson: Dude. I swear to God I was like, uh, one year I flew, I think a hundred flights. Right. And that's probably nothing compared to Justin. And I swear to God, like 70 percent of the flights I saw
Justin on there.
Justin Gray: All right, go to market story. Uh, well, okay, here's one. So you guys, you know, we've already talked about [00:19:00] lead MD, like primarily what probably most of this audience knows me for, but I've also done other businesses. And so like, here's an interesting one. So, uh, I won't go into all of the backstory on how I got involved with this company, but you know, in 2005, 2006, right?
Like this is also when I first bought Marketo. Um, You know, startups were not as glamorous as they are today, right? Like, we used to call these, like, unemployed people. Um, and so, like, I had, like, a, you know, traditional job. I went to school for marketing. I was, like, working my way up, like, the corporate ladder within marketing.
I think I was a marketing director at this point. And through a series of totally random crazy events, which is a whole other story, which I actually do think I detail in the book. Um, I, I got introduced to this company and they were a payment technology company. Um, and so like I spent like six months, like meeting with, you know, the other six people that worked there at the [00:20:00] time.
Uh, you know, C-E-O-C-T-O, you know, real, you know, they're showing me p and Ls, you know, Hey, we're gonna be around the next day, don't you know, we've actually got something here. Um, but they were very small. Like, you know, revenue was, was under a million in, in a RR. And so ultimately I make the, the leap to join this company.
I came on as their first vp. You know, I, I got the title, VP of Marketing, eventually got VP of Sales and marketing, ran all of go to market. Um, but I come to find out, you know, yes, they do have technology. Yes, they are, you know, processing payments and so on, but predominantly their, their primary industry is the arm vertical, the collection industry.
You know, what most of us would probably think of as the armpit of, of business. Um, really interesting vertical, great people, but not, you know, I guess I missed that, uh, show note, uh, when I was meeting with them. Um, and so, okay, great, you know, now I've got to market and [00:21:00] sell to, you know, this, this interesting vertical.
The thing that's great about the vertical, especially if you're a payment company, like, all they do is take payments. Like most people provide a service or a product or whatever and have to take a payment. Like these people are professional payment takers. Um, and so there's a lot of payment volume in there, which is great for, for a payment startup.
Um, and so anyway, like we go, like things were going well and I'm kind of like trying to do the standard things that you're supposed to do as a, as a marketing leader and so on. But then I really started to kind of get, become aware of like who these people really were and so on. And to Matt's point about traveling, like shows to them were like a vacation and they love Florida.
They love Vegas. They love SoCal, right? Like they're going to a place cause they're in like Minnesota in a call center for the majority of, of, of their time. Right. And so this is their, their blowout. They're looking to have fun. And so, you [00:22:00] know, I say like, screw it. I'm not doing, you know, cause I was doing like webinars Email blasts and crap like that.
And I was like, listen, we gotta like stand out. These guys are here to have fun. So I ran, at the same time, the company was actually called EPP when I started. Electronic Payment Providers. Um, and we got a cease and desist from Western Union who had a product called like EPP. It did not stand for the same thing.
But, and so we're like, crap, we gotta like rebrand the company. We got the biggest show coming up. And so I've got to do all this stuff. Like there was no agency. Like I designed everything. I redid the website. I think some of the pages were stolen from Salesforce. I downloaded their code cause I liked their payment page and like hacked it together and so on, like did a rebrand for, you know, 10, 000 or something like that.
Um, and, and I'm like, you know, how do we get this brand out there? I also got the show coming up. So I ran all these t shirts and I got these t shirt cannons. [00:23:00] That, you know, this, like, that sounds like run of the mill, like no one was doing that back then. And so I'm like, I think I saw it at a Suns game. I was like, where do you get those cannons at?
And I, I found this place that would actually sell these like commercial t shirt heads. And so I, I armed all of our sales team, which was not a lot. I think we were, you know, 10 people by this point. Um, but brought like most of the company out there and I'm like, we're just going to shoot. You know, we had a small little booth.
It was nothing to write home, but we're going to like blanket everything and we're going to get people going. And of course they loved it. They reacted to it. But anyway, I shot this cannon and I'm shooting it like over booths. Like, you know, like the people, the show people are like chasing us around, like trying to get us to stop doing this.
And I hit this guy in the head. Um, And it turns, like, he comes over, he's like, I love it. You know, he's just, you know, he's pumped and he's like, what do you
Craig Rosenberg: he's concussed
Justin Gray: And yeah, yeah, he's delirious at this point, but you know, and so he comes over to the, he's [00:24:00] like, what do you guys do? I'm like, Oh, we process payments.
He goes, uh, you guys do ACH as well? I'm like, yeah, card, ACH, wire, anything. He's like, give me a call on Monday. And so, you
know, like, yeah. Yeah. And so I won't mention this guy's name, but if you're a fan, if you have Netflix and you're a fan of their series, Dirty Money, he's episode one on season one.
Craig Rosenberg: no way. That was not where I thought you were going. I thought you were going to do a terrible go to market story about, uh, hitting some guy in
the head. That is, what a twist.
Justin Gray: the story of when we all became millionaires, Craig. Um, so he said, this is who I am. I'm, you know, the largest payday lender in the country. And they were, uh, actually had a super innovative business model. It's also a great lesson in, if the government wants to get you, they're going to get you.
Um, so they, they actually regulated for [00:25:00] his business, um, and you know, did not have a good outcome for him. But for, you know, many years, so, uh, literally, payday lending businesses process a ton of ACH transactions. So we went from processing like 600, 000 ACH transactions a year to processing, you know, I think initially we got a small chunk of the business and expanded, but a small chunk was like 5 million ACH transactions a month.
Um, and so literally overnight, like we went from a scrappy startup into like, Hey, it's a different world. Like all of our, you know, equity in the company was worth many, many, uh, dollars at that point, but here's the kicker. So Eventually, as I mentioned before, like I sold my piece in that company, the company ended up selling in total two years after that, uh, to private equity for 300 million dollars, somewhere around that, that mark.
Um, but, [00:26:00] so I had a non compete, of course, after I left, my non compete was three years, but everyone I talked to was like, nothing's enforceable after two years. So I started a lookalike business called PaidSuite, which eventually sold as well. Um, but by that point, like, you know, private equity had eaten that world.
Everyone got, you know, uh, acquired and so on. You know, I went out to a show for the first time in like two years. Um, and I was like, man, this is like, this used to be so fun. Everyone's just like so dry and boring and they've, they've corporatized it. And so we're like, all right, well, we're going to launch this business.
Basically ran the same playback, took a golf simulator out to like a huge golf simulator. Uh, we had C. J. Anderson, who was a Cardinals player at the booth, signing autographs. And we had, uh, my buddy's girlfriend and all of her friends were the, you know, the, the, the club gals that come around. Oh, you need a club, blah, blah, blah.
Um, you know, they, they would bring people into the booth. Basically, [00:27:00] oh, you know, you know, longest drive contest, this, that, and the other. Uh, ended up in the booth. Not earning that business back because it had blown up, but we ended up landing Ace Cash, which was by then the largest paid lender in the country.
It basically ran the whole thing back over again and sold that business in about three years. So, I mean, the point there I think is, you know, you've got to be doing things other people aren't doing and, and you know, same old thing that everyone will preach in terms of knowing your customer, but that was a super interesting customer to settle to for in total.
It sold into that industry for about six years. Um, you mentioned travel, like I did Vegas over 40 times a year. And that was not even inclusive of like all these other regions. You know, I was on a plane just every, every single week. Um, I was single then, so it was a lot easier, but a really interesting space and, you know, really interesting kind of boomerang, uh, customer story.
Matt Amundson: Nice.
Craig Rosenberg: excellent. That was a good one. [00:28:00] Yeah, geez. Um, uh, It, it, there was twists, turns. It was
Justin Gray: There were highs, epic, it was an epic tale. You know, it went for a while, you
is an epic. Am
Craig Rosenberg: So, and I, you sort of started down this lane, actually, when you're talking about the book, but I, you know, I don't know if this would be your answer about the sort of core
Justin Gray: I being coached?
Craig Rosenberg: no,
Justin Gray: you want to give this as your answer.
Craig Rosenberg: no, actually, no, no, honestly, I was just making sure that people didn't think I was an idiot and asking you a question that you had already sort of started down the lane. Now, I do think that'll be tough to rebrand against me being
considered an idiot, but no, the, the question that guides the show is, is, is this, which is, you know, what's something or, or things that the market's doing today could be approach, methodology, process, tactics, whatever.
And they're actually wrong and they should be thinking about it [00:29:00] different. And what's cool about asking that question now is that, uh, we're in a new year. I mean, like this is like, we're, we're sort of allegedly supposed to be at a fresh start. So I'm looking forward to your answer there, and then we'll, we'll just. We'll just pivot
Justin Gray: We'll go from there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Matt Amundson: Hm, Uh, yeah. And, you know, full disclosure, you kind of prepped me for this question. I've been thinking about it for the last week.
Speaker 2: I
Justin Gray: mean, my very, like, ethereal, uh, high level answer that we can kind of get down into reality and tactics. But, like, I truly believe that
Speaker 2: so
Justin Gray: many people allow life to be predetermined by assumption.
Matt Amundson: Hmm?
Craig Rosenberg: What?
Justin Gray: that's my
Craig Rosenberg: Jesus. I thought
Justin Gray: and I will break
that down. Yeah, lead nurturing is wrong. It's not 52 weeks. You got to do 110 weeks. I'm telling you. Uh, no, [00:30:00] I'll make this real. I promise. Um, but Yeah, so here's one example, right? Like so, you know I've even posted and called the book that we're putting out, the Go To Market Cheat Code, like a playbook.
It's a complete misnomer, however, but like people want playbooks. They want like, tell me the, you know, again, what's working. They want the steps they want, you know, and we've seen this with the inbound and outbound and I forget, John Miller has a term for this. Um, it is a great term. Sam, you need to put this in the show notes.
But essentially like it's one person does something hyper creative and totally out of the box. Like again, I mentioned earlier, like people want pleasant surprise. They want to be wowed. They want to be overwhelmed in a great way. Right. And one person does that and then everyone dog piles on it and turns it into a big, huge pile of shit.
Right. And that's why it's so difficult to, to innovate in a [00:31:00] space because like everything's so visible these days. The next person steals it immediately. Like, um, the, the post John put this up on was like that, Oh, comment below with a transaction to get, you know, X, Y, Z piece of content or framework or toolkit or whatever, and then you see everyone now you see everyone comment, you know, comment below cheat code and I'll give you, you know what I mean?
Like it worked one time. It was innovative. It was surprising. People felt like they were getting this. This special thing, and now everyone's doing it and it's totally run of the mill. The problem is those cycles that started moving so quickly these days, like, you know, we mentioned Marketo before, so I'll try and keep things in a, in a vein like Marketo, put out their best practices right in, in, in terms of John's definitive guide.
And then, you know, they actually had like a two or three year run where it was like, holy crap, like I can't wait for the next definitive guide to come out. And, and they were running like how Marketo ran Marketo was like the [00:32:00] thing. Um, but then everyone started doing it. And now you look at even people's websites today and they're still doing the ultra guide to X, Y, you know, fill in the blank.
And that's why everything has just become so blasé.
Speaker 2: is
Justin Gray: You're, you're looking for that thing that everyone else is doing and then you're just repeating it. And that's why I say the book is more of a collection of what I would call like inspirational examples. But like you have to go take that and you know, think for yourself and, and, and, and know your buyer and innovate or it's just gonna fall flat.
And so many people are afraid to make mistakes that they're always looking for. What is everyone else doing? And that's why, you know, marketing is, you know, the pendulum has swung so far over into this. Data driven BS. Yes, you want to measure stuff that you're doing, but like, you're never taking any risks.
You're never going outside the box, and therefore, lo and behold, things aren't working anymore. Um, you know, so, you know, and I've got a thousand different thoughts [00:33:00] that have come up around this, but like, it, for me, it all starts with that assumption. Like, assuming You know, so and so is going to react like this, or I can't do this because of X, Y, Z, or I need to figure out what Snowflake or Gong is doing because they're crushing it right now.
And I need to follow that playbook. Um, it's just, it's the kiss of death.
Craig Rosenberg: It's a kiss of death.
Justin Gray: It's the kiss of death. Heh, what? I don't even know what movie that is.
Craig Rosenberg: Who was in it?
Speaker 4: Oh.
Matt Amundson: Sam's got, well, Nick Cage, but, uh
Craig Rosenberg: Oh, well, wait, it's a
Nick Cage movie that I missed? Jesus, yeah. I'm a face
Justin Gray: I gonna check it out. Yeah. Face off . I'm gonna take his face off.
Craig Rosenberg: So, such an
Justin Gray: Boom.
Speaker 3: storyline. Um, so, uh, okay, I like that, but, but there's something interesting as you were talking that I, I wonder [00:34:00] if, is the real baseline,
Craig Rosenberg: which is that, um, I, you know, I would argue everyone on this call is like this.
So, I'll say that the headliner is, uh, Innovators look for ideas. And I found that at Topo, which was like, we would, uh, like the, we're trained to identify the pain, but actually what people bought were the ideas.
And like, um, so, but what you're saying is there's, there's a second layer to it. I'll get there in a sec.
I just want to be long winded.
It's pretty cool. it's my new
it's my new
Justin Gray: I, I'm bought
in
Craig Rosenberg: more long winded.
Justin Gray: say more
Speaker 6: Oh. Oh,
Speaker 3: shit. that was
Craig Rosenberg: amazing. Yeah. I'm going to, I'll cross that one off. Um,
no, but, but, but I will describe Justin cause we've been friends for, you know, 15 years or [00:35:00] whatever is you're always watching.
Speaker 3: You
Craig Rosenberg: are like, I, I've never,
Justin Gray: I'm a curious person.
Craig Rosenberg: right. But you have to be to figure out what idea. To do that's different than ever so you got to know your buyer, but you should Like the best idea people are the people that are just learning watching talking and figuring this stuff out and then coming up with their idea.
If you don't, like I've had plenty of situations where someone comes to me and they think this is the greatest idea because they're trying to follow your cheat code,
but
Justin Gray: trying to come up with a great idea.
Craig Rosenberg: but they don't know what that, they don't have the, like, they haven't sort of internalized, looked at, figured out what everyone else has already done or is
doing.
Justin Gray: Yeah. I mean, how did I start this business? Like I sat, I think, in the office that you're sitting in right now, and dozens of others and just asked, what do you do? What, what, how, how do you find investments? What, what, what, [00:36:00] what, what do you do after that point? Like what, what, what, what type of, you know, what do you look to bring to a board meeting?
What do your founders say to you? Like, I just literally took six months and got into any door in this, but even getting into that door requires what I'm talking about. Like I can sit there and say like, Oh, these guys are successful. They, you know, they've got their own methodology, their, their proprietary thought process.
They're never going to share anything with me. Or I can just start like, Calling people I know and saying, Hey, who do you know? Who do I need to talk to? Who do you know over at XYZ? Can you make an intro? This, that, and the other. So maybe that's like leading with stupidity can be another way to frame this.
Uh, I call it like, you know, unabashed optimism, but like, you know, I'm going to have to ask for what I want. And then again, like I, I can't be wasting that person's time there or, or just, you know, you know, Hey, you, you, you granted me this audience and now I'm just going to throw that away. [00:37:00] Like I, I need to be engaging and asking questions and so on and like really getting to what, you know, in our world became the heart of our business.
Like we, if you follow that example through, like we knew, okay, great. Like after like three conversations, it was like, we're never competing with these people. Like the, the, the cachet of, of who's on your cap table is. the guiding principle for most founders. Like, are, you know, are, is this justifying, is this validating my company?
And will they be able to lead me into further investment rounds, right? Like that's quite frankly the headline. Um, so we're never going to be able to compete on that. There's no, like, we, we don't have the track record or the history to be like, oh, I'm from Bessemer and now I'm starting my own fund. Like we've got to do everything, in in the way that where the market is presenting opportunities.
And those conversations for me exposed this opportunity that said like, I don't want to compete with these people. I want to partner with them. And what am I going to be able to bring to the table so that they will [00:38:00] open up allocation for me? Well, I'm going to really work really damn hard. And I've got, you know, the, the, this, you know, expertise, quite frankly around go to market that I can bring to the table, but I can really pay that off through effort.
Okay. And so we spend, you know, at least 20 hours a week for the first, you know, call it six to eight months with our investments. It doesn't necessarily scale back at that point, but it's just so intensive for that first six to eight months. And we're rolling up our sleeves and we're saying like, I'm going to be a part of your team.
Like we've, we've managed the sales teams of our investments. We've sold on behalf of our investments. We've been their BDR. In addition to the stuff that you'd probably expect, which is like, Oh, I'm going to create. You know, I'm going to refine your ICP. I'm going to help you with messaging. I'm going to, you know, uh, help you with your demand gen.
So like the kind of stuff you would expect, but then also like, Oh, you just lost your VP of sales who you thought was going to be like the, the five year guy in this business, like, okay, we'll [00:39:00] step in and do that in that particular example, like we stepped in and closed over 450, 000 in ARR within that quarter.
And that was, you know, quite frankly, uh, Almost doubled the business. And so like we can put our, our effort where our mouth is essentially, and then prove that out. And right now my, my biggest testimonial channel is my founders to say like, Oh, new VC partner, like you're a seed stage VC. Hey, talk to these folks and see if we're not making a substantive impact.
I can de risk your investment as much as you can ever de risk. Uh, early stage venture. Um, but you know, it won't be for lack of trying. Like we, we're really your partner in this. And you know, with that, yay, I need a, you know, between one and three, but frankly most of our investments are between one and one and a half.
Um, and in turn, I'm willing to provide this value add that no one else in the market is providing. Um, and so that's, that's what those [00:40:00] conversations yielded. It also did the same. With our LP, our investment strategy, it did the same with our financial model. So we had to find, you know, gaps that either were not prevalent or that no one else was doing and say, if we really want to succeed in this space or at least give it one hell of a run, we can't go up, you know, we can't be beating our heads against the wall of what folks are already doing.
We have to find new, you know, areas to innovate.
Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. That, that makes total sense. I think we've heard that, some version of what you're talking about through the year, actually. Because, and if you just take this simple idea that it's hard as hell. Right now it's always been I know there's all these people that correct me and say okay sure but like right now if you're in
Justin Gray: When's it been easy?
Speaker 3: It's It's the noisiest place we've ever been and it's like you have to do something. You have to really sort of think through Uh the uniqueness of not what you're saying was really interesting too, which is the uniqueness of your [00:41:00] offering as well It's like everything this is a Business strategy.
Matt Amundson: Yeah.
Justin Gray: It is all the things all the time, right? You know what I mean? Like, and that's what I look for in founders. Like, do you grasp that fundamental concept? Because quite frankly, you know, in my opinion, seed stage investing is still jockey investing. There's so much that precipitates from the founder and just their mentality and their approach and certainly their ability to put pen to paper.
And, and operate, but, um, like that fundamental, you know, uh, methodology or mentality translates into everything. Like, you know, I don't want the founder that's like, Oh, I'm going to bring on a fractional, you know, marketing resource. Like, dude, what about your business is fractional? Like nothing. Like you wake up thinking about this, you go to bed thinking about it.
Like I want the person that's like, Oh, I'm going to indoctrinate.
Speaker 2: indoctrinate
Justin Gray: Someone to step into my business probably for much less money that they're making right now and a future promise. That's worth [00:42:00] nothing You know, but the paper it's written on I want that person that can like Really come out there and win the hearts and minds of people
Matt Amundson: know,
Yeah.
Justin Gray: Because to a long winded point it's all the things all the time
Matt Amundson: it done or this
Yeah, how much it's so it's interesting. I felt like there was a time period where One of the most important things towards, uh, uh, uh, making an investment was the belief in the CEO, not just in the product or not in the space, but like, you know, sometimes you'd hear people say like, look, I met this guy, whether it was Nick Metta or whether it was Phil Fernandes or, you know, whether it was Mark Benioff and I just, I just knew.
I just knew this guy was going to get it done, or this gal was going to get it done. You know, obviously business metrics have to be there. You know, the TAM has to be there, all that stuff. But I felt like there was a pretty long stretch where, uh, investors over indexed on idea. They over indexed on like market [00:43:00] potential and they under indexed on CEO.
And, uh, and I think that like some of the story of like the really frothy investing time. Uh, we'll be told through, you know, this company didn't, uh, this company wasn't all that successful. Was it because their idea was bad? It was. Maybe because the person was the wrong person. So, uh, you know, you just closed your last investment of the year, uh, in, in 2024, and you'll, you'll be doing more this year.
How much of like CEO, like, you know, they're, they're sort of chutzpah or whatever, whatever it is that sort of that sort of in, in, in, in, in calculable quality, uh, is, uh, leads you towards writing a check.
Speaker 4: a check.
Justin Gray: I mean, you could have mentioned it earlier. Like, there's certain gates, right? Like, we're seed stage investors for B2B vertical SaaS. Like, that's the first gate. Revenue is the second gate, right? Like, we don't invest in anything below 500k in ARR. We don't really [00:44:00] invest in anything above 1. 5 million in ARR.
So the, you know, already these, these lenses are getting pretty tight. Um, and so like that, that, that's, you know, Again, we sell through other VCs. So like they know that criteria before they're even bringing something to the table. And then of course that revenue, like how quickly is that earned? Like I don't need a 10 year company that's taken, you know, that amount of a decade to get, you know, half a million dollars in ARR.
Like there has to be that, that traction. And then obviously TAM. And, and you know, is this a market that, uh, you know, that has, you know, Signals and, and, and ingredients where we see that growing up was kind of talking about that latest investment. Like we, there, there's a bunch of market paradigms that make that a really attractive market, but whether we write the check or not, solely comes down to what you just mentioned.
Like, is that, do we believe not only in that CEO and how they, uh, their potential, their, their, their [00:45:00] mentality, their ability to inspire people and how they think about That crazy undefined role that we call being a CEO, but also do they want our help truly? You know like that's that's the final big piece of fit where it's like hey You need to go talk to these people about how we operate because again like a ton of VCs advertise value add, right?
Um, in fact, I don't know if there's a VC website that doesn't, maybe Founders Fund, right, which is like, hey, I'm, I'm betting on people only and hands off. Uh, and that's their unique methodology. Most people have some sort of a value add. And so, like, even that phrase has gotten highly diluted in terms of what that means.
And so we spend a lot of time, you know, educating and exposing. This is what that looks like for us, right? In fact, if we are hands off in investment and we're seeing you once a quarter for a board meeting, like that's a failure of an investment for our model because we need to [00:46:00] be able to say like, Oh, we, you know, provided, you know, mission critical value at a time where you needed it there.
Um, and so, you know, founder and, and who they are, they're just day to day approach and then fit for our model is, is the. Ultimate criteria for, for a stroke and a check.
Matt Amundson: Yeah. Nice.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Craig Rosenberg: Did you just say stroking a check?
Justin Gray: Yeah, I did.
Craig Rosenberg: Wow, Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2: a
Craig Rosenberg: new
Justin Gray: They don't say that anymore.
Craig Rosenberg: No,
that's, uh,
Justin Gray: how old I'm getting these days. Cause I still talk like it's like the, uh, late nineties, early 2000s.
Craig Rosenberg: Uh, Sam wasn't even born yet,
but yes, that he knows that one. Yeah. Um, will you, uh, I want to go back. One thing I've been so intrigued by that I think the market would get a lot of value from is your emphasis on [00:47:00] partnerships and, um, um, channel, I guess emphasis is understating, right? I mean, you're, you're looking for people that you'd feel like you can build one, but, but what, like, how do you think about that?
How should, uh, organizations think about that and, and how do they set themselves up for success specifically around, you know, let's just call it channel as a general word.
Justin Gray: Yep. Yeah, so as you mentioned, like that's a fundamental criteria for us as well. Like, does the business have the presence of a partner ecosystem or the potential to develop one? Um, because I feel that that's so important when you're a new entrant. And I kind of alluded earlier, like I've spent my life as a new entrant.
Like any business I've ever started, I have had little to no experience in that business. And so, you know, normally it's driven by like, Oh, I've got a skill set or there's an opportunity is largely [00:48:00] opportunistic in that, in that manner. Um, and so how do you accelerate success in an environment where you are the new kid on the block, you don't have, you know, a ton of weight to throw around and so on.
And that's why I think, you know, even if you are seeing great customer attraction, right? Like. You can amplify that through access and you can amplify that access through true, what I call hyper value. Like, are we able to, uh, I'll give you an example. So we've got a, uh, you know, software company in our, in the portfolio that is in healthcare and, um, they deal with healthcare compensation.
And so, great, like this is a hyper complex, uh, element of healthcare. Doctors get paid like sales reps.
Speaker 2: Uh,
Justin Gray: You can form your own opinion around that. There, there are strategic levers in the organization they're trying to pull through compensation. And so there's a lot of data signals [00:49:00] that come into forming that.
Everything from patient NPS to, you know, uh, results based care, or what do they call them, RBUs,
Speaker 2: are be used.
Justin Gray: um, leading all the way up into, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Uh,
Justin Gray: value based care, right? Like, to where eventually it's, did you Not just treat the problem, uh, correctly, but did you cure the problem? That's kind of where the industry, at least from, uh, um, uh, what they're advertising, uh, where they want to go.
But so that leads to a bunch of different data that you have to bring in and, and, and, and great, our software does that. But those folks don't design their comp plans. They pay white shoe consultants, many. thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars in some cases to design these highly strategic compensation plans based on the growth levers and strategic goals of the business.
And so we looked at the business and said like, [00:50:00] wow, that's interesting. You've got, you know, these consultants that have made, you know, large businesses out of consulting on different aspects of healthcare, but when they turn over their work, they turn over an Excel spreadsheet. And then Healthcare organizations hire a ton of analysts to then manage that spreadsheet essentially and say, Hey, here's, you know, the results of, of August.
Um, which leads to a lot of errors, which leads to almost zero insight on the part of the consultant. And so we looked at the space and said, Hmm, that's interesting. We could be that window for those consultants. We can provide them a lot of value. Their one time consulting project can essentially become a managed service moving forward to where they can get access in real time.
To how that performance is taking, you know, what's happening with that plan. Are we seeing movement in the right direction? Are people pissed off? Are they not making what they thought they were going to make? So, and so forth, they can optimize and tweak those plans over time. And now that's a completely new [00:51:00] service for them.
In turn, they have access to every single customer that we want to get access to. And so let's start there. Let's give them. All the value. Hey, our software is free to you. You can mock the plans up. You can visualize them. You can see what that would have, what impact it would have had, had the previous year been under that plan, had the previous five years been under that plan.
Just modeling that you're not able to do without a lot of legwork in an Excel type environment, right? So take it. See if it doesn't impact your business. All right. Who's biting on that? Who is coming back and saying like, hey, we're really excited about this. We can see developing a product line. Um, you know, some people like, Oh, we want to develop our own.
Well, here's the, you know, let, let us help you in that process. Basically, let us show you how complex it is so that ultimately you just say, Hey, can we just, you know, uh, adopt your platform, which has happened. Uh, but that, that, that, that's how we looked at that environment. And that's how I look at business as a whole.
Like if I want access to, [00:52:00] you know, this coveted thing called customers and revenue. How can I add value to the person who's largely the gatekeeper to that access? How do I piggyback off, off of that trust? Um, and that's just what I've always naturally had to do within my business career and, and frankly, my personal life as well.
Um, and so it just makes a lot of sense to me. And I think at the heart of it is this notion of getting to get, and this gets back to the CEO thread as well. Because If you look at, uh, Asher Matthews, who runs, um, uh, partnership leaders, put a post up, I believe this morning on LinkedIn, which said like, Oh, I had this big prediction for what the number one friction point was in developing partner ecosystems.
And I got so many comments on it. I was wrong. You guys think it's, you know, organizational alignment beginning with the, the executive team and ultimately the CEO. And. After running a podcast and writing a book on this topic for the [00:53:00] last three years, essentially, like, I could tell you without any doubt, that is what everyone says.
Like, executive alignment is the most difficult barrier in creating a true partnership motion and a partnership ecosystem. It all CEO. Do they have a servant mindset, even within their own organization? Do, are they Fundamentally aligned with the notion of giving to get. And if they aren't, 9. 9 times out of 10, that partnership program will fail.
And that small fraction that will succeed despite itself is because you had so much gravity and so much pull and so much value in the solution that you're providing that other people just naturally started, you know, lomming onto it. But very rarely do you ever see a program like that succeed. Number one, because it takes time.
It takes, uh, intellectual investment, and it takes monetary investment to actually create a true thriving [00:54:00] ecosystem. We call it an ecosystem because everyone there is serving someone else, uh, and it's, it's a difficult concept when the rubber actually meets the road and you are spending money and making investments without a straight line path into ROI.
You just know that by doing the, the right thing, the good thing, that ultimately value will come out of it. So I think that, you know, again, it's such a call to, is the organization ready for it? Is it cultural in nature? And you can see that even how, you know, uh, organizations treat, train and enable and compensate their people.
Uh, you probably look at that. Someone should create an algorithm around that specifically, because it's probably 100 percent predictive on whether they'll successfully stand up a partnership program.
Craig Rosenberg: Yeah.
Justin Gray: a terrible word there because it's not a program. It's just, that's what we call it, but it is a way of doing business.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Matt Amundson: Yeah.[00:55:00]
Craig Rosenberg: Yeah. That's how you can stroke more checks
Justin Gray: You know, you want someone to stir up a check. You gotta, you know,
I'll stop
Craig Rosenberg: LinkedIn. That's purely for TikTok. Um, so the, uh, but, but, Justin, this, uh, just, just digging in for one sec, because, you know, most partnership programs, okay, we're not, strategies fail.
Justin Gray: yes,
Speaker 3: They're
Craig Rosenberg: failures. And, um, there's a lot of reasons for that, but I don't want to, well, we could talk about that, but Should people, because you're so early, it's that's what's interesting. Everyone knows they need an ecosystem. It often comes later. What you're saying is this is our fastest path to growing really fast. And you do
Justin Gray: Go to market partnerships, you know, certainly. I think there's, you know, we could talk about technical, you know, integration partnerships. We could talk about, you know, referral and, and, um, you know, just different [00:56:00] amalgamations of, uh, of, um, providing access. But yeah, fundamentally, I think go to market partnerships are, I hate to say it, but the, the, the cheat code in, in, in this instance, the funny thing is it's not like a, you know, your, your contra and You know, 30 guys, 30 lives up, down, left, right, all that garbage.
It's not quick, but when you look at the results it generates, it's truly a windfall and that's why I think it's such a, a powerful unlock and cheat.
Craig Rosenberg: I forget what company Matt was at. I remember cause I call him 85 times a day and he was like, he had just started. Was it secure? What was the security account? I don't remember. You're like, dude, the AWS marketplace is like gold, right? And he was just like gushing. Cause. You know, in the previous world, it was all hardcore direct channel was a, you know, I'd call it what in, in sales and marketing often, it's just a marketing partnership.
I
Justin Gray: A [00:57:00] lot of
times.
Yeah.
Craig Rosenberg: you. Yeah. And so, and then Matt was like, holy crap, man. This is like, I mean, they were, you, it was early too. And you guys were killing it on the, on the marketplaces. Right.
Matt Amundson: And at the new place where I'm at now, uh, AWS is just such an awesome partner. I will say it's a little complicated. There's so many different programs to work with. Uh, and it's, it's not exactly the type of partnership I think Justin's talking about, but like, just because it is, it is truly a marketplace.
Uh, um, you know, I think about like, You know, Justin's business and the way, you know, Lead MD worked as a partner to Marketo. I think that's, that's a little bit more of what we're talking about here, where it's like, you know, you create this really great relationship with this business and then, you know, it takes time and it takes bonsai trees and it takes, uh, you know,
it, it
Justin Gray: to Napa and
Matt Amundson: Exactly.
Yeah. Bottles of wine and, and, and whatnot. But in the end it pays off in such a big way because, you know, in, in certain circumstances it was hard to [00:58:00] separate, you know, the, the brand's Marketo from Lead MD, uh, just because they became so intertwined. And
so,
Speaker 4: so,
Justin Gray: and this is something, sorry to interrupt you again. Like, I do think, just on that topic, um, on the topic of, of time, right? Because that's the, the Achilles heel in, in however one describes partner. But, it is fairly easy, and the timeline is fairly short. to win the heart and mind of one person. And, and, and quite frankly, that's what can really validate, do I have something here? Right? So like, then this is what we encourage a lot of our, our founders to do, which is like, okay, let's do the work ahead of time. Let's go through the ideal partner profile fed by the ICP. Let's, let's do all that work to figure out directionally where we think we want to point.
But then. Make that your mission in life to identify, you know, two to [00:59:00] three people in that org that could potentially be that, that champion, that, that initial domino. And then of those three, probably one of them is going to be like spiritually aligned to the exercise, right? Like, so they'll take a meeting, they'll, they'll have some conversations.
Give you enough air in the room so that you can explain how you're gonna help them. And again, this goes back to like what we talked about earlier, which is like, okay, I need to learn from them first, you know, because on the Marketo example, like the different departments, different organizations, or different departments, different individuals within the organization had different pains.
And so just using the no brainer sales one, like the, the inability for them to get deals across the line because they did not have talent, The buyer did not have talent in house to run that system
Matt Amundson: Yeah.
Justin Gray: was our first unlock in terms of pain. Okay, great. I'm going to design a program that specifically, oh, [01:00:00] everyone thinks they're going to hire, uh, this great resource.
So it's like, not an annual retainer. It's like, hey, here's your three month augmentation. And we'll help you hire that person as well. Like that's a purpose designed solution out of this pain that this one champion sales rep said to us. And then it worked. And people were like, great, that's exactly what I need.
I just need to make sure every, when this person, you know, this magical unicorn of a employee that we're going to hire steps into their, their seat, everything's going to be like, the table's going to be set, everything's ready to go. And they can just apply their horsepower. Awesome. I think that's.
probably way too optimistic and you're never going to find that person, but I will give you what you want. And now these deals are getting closed, right? Their win rates are higher. Their ACPs are higher. And now they're out there in their president's club saying, Hey, what was your secret? The, the, you know, the, these last four quarters to just blowing everything out of the water.
Speaker 2: MD
Justin Gray: [01:01:00] like has helped me on every single deal. They've been there. We did the same thing with. Speaking CMO, which was another objection, like, yeah, I'm a 28 year old sales rep and I can get, you know, my champion and my, my, uh, influencers and my evaluators, I can get them bought in, but then they, they've got this step that I'm not invited to this, you know, this board meeting or this, this, uh, uh, C suite meeting and, and they take all my information, they make a decision, they come back and say, no.
How do I get them to say yes? Well, okay, we've got it at that point enough profile that we can get invited into that room because we're going to provide you like, you know, again, white shoe caliber business models and ROI projections. And like we get, we can augment all that crap just so you can get that, you can raise your win rate for this, you know, back of the house conversation that you're normally not invited to.
Long winded another example of that, right? And we had. 15, 20 of these types of objections [01:02:00] just by listening to people. And again, a lot of people's were different. Oh, I'm hearing it from like 50 percent of that department. All right, let's design something around that. Maybe it's a product, maybe it's just a message, right?
Like, but hey, we can help you solve for that. So I think it's, it's people under index on, on how Relatively easy it is to win the heart and mind of one individual and if you over perform And if you really take to heart like what they're telling you and you're able to show those results They will they will catalyze that within that organization And now you've proven that like this give to get has legs to it and and then you can go back and make larger investments
Matt Amundson: Dang.
Craig Rosenberg: There we go.
Justin Gray: I feel like every time I stop talking it's just like Uhhhh When is he gonna stop talking?
Speaker 2: Oh,
Craig Rosenberg: Okay. The show's
Justin Gray: He's back! Okay, now it's
back on
Craig Rosenberg: I, I didn't realize, um, anyway, no, [01:03:00] that was no, that actually, I mean, look, we're listening. It's pretty intense. So, uh,
Justin Gray: I just don't, I mean, you probably sense it in my voice, like, I don't know why more people are not able to to do this, quite frankly. Because it seems like a do or die thing to me, I guess, because it's always been a do or die thing. Like, um, you know, the buck has stopped with me and I've had to go out and say it like, This is our path forward because us sending cold emails and, and, you know, sponsoring a 10 by 10 booth is not going to grow this business.
And so like, what is our, our channel to market?
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. awesome.
Matt Amundson: Well, damn,
Craig Rosenberg: That was great. I mean, that, that's, um, that was a great show. Um, I, um, not that we were surprised, but,
Justin Gray: there was a lot of, a lot of trepidation in your voice, Greg. I knew that, you know, you were, you were worried about how this
Matt Amundson: no, no, no. This show, this show is the direction that we want the shows [01:04:00] going in. Right. It was largely story based, which is bad ass. Right. Instead of just pontificating on what could be in, in scenarios, it's like, Hey, here's how I did it yourself, or here's how other people can do it.
Justin Gray: the reason I tried to go big with the example number one, it gives you so many paths to go down. But like the most frustrating thing to me in running a podcast has been like this fucking boring ass. Like what, like to your point, lead nurturing, like you just came on and told me like your secret to like, Your entire career and growth is lead nurturing.
Like, where do I go with that? You know, like, especially if you disagree with it and you're like, Oh man, like this has gotten like way too tactical and way too silent. So that's why I try to go, you know, at least aim at a different
Craig Rosenberg: Yeah, no, appreciate it. That's awesome. All right. Well, you guys, sorry again for my Travails this morning, but uh great show the transaction and thanks Justin. I'll I'll
uh, I'll say great [01:05:00] Great great show for the beginning of the year.
Matt Amundson: Yeah, go out, go buy the Go To Market
cheat code. Sam and I did live on the podcast. Craig has yet to buy it.
Craig.
has yet to buy it. We've got the receipts.
Justin Gray: yeah.
Matt Amundson: Ha ha ha! Day one!
Justin Gray: buying, we're buying a lot more of the cheat code.
Matt Amundson: ha
Sam Guertin: And there's a link right down in the show notes.
Justin Gray: Thank you so much,
Craig Rosenberg: I love it. Show note that thing. All right guys, great work. [01:06:00] [01:07:00] [01:08:00] [01:09:00] [01:10:00] [01:11:00] [01:12:00] [01:13:00] [01:14:00] [01:15:00] [01:16:00] [01:17:00] [01:18:00] [01:19:00] [01:20:00] [01:21:00] [01:22:00] [01:23:00]